Cardiff Queen Street improvements

[DaveHarries]

Taken from the journeycheck page of Arriva Trains Wales:

"Network Rail will be doing major improvement work to Cardiff Queen Street station between 27th December 2012 and 18th January 2013 and there will be some changes to the way the station operates during this period."

Anyone know specifically what this session of work is going to entail?

Dave

 

[krus_aragon]

Extra platforms and a new station building are on the cards. The disused platform will be brought back into use, and a new bay platform built for Cardiff Bay shuttles in order to release the current platform 3 for through services. The disused platform is not currently accessible from the concourse (it was cut off in the last rebuild (late 80s?) ) and access to it is planned as part of the rebuilt station front. I'd put money on the stairlift to platform 3 being replaced with a lift as well.

The embedded link leads (via Facebook for some absurd reason) to Arriva's page on the Cardiff Area Signalling Renewal, with a general summary of changes for the public. (Direct link)

Improving the Cardiff & Valleys Rail Network

You will soon see work happening at Cardiff Central and Cardiff Queen Street stations, improving the entrances and the addition of new platforms.

This work will also improve reliability and capacity on the Cardiff and Valleys rail network. The £220 million project is jointly funded by Network Rail and the Welsh Government. This will include;

• a new platform at Cardiff Central
• a new south-side entrance at Cardiff Central with lifts to the new platform
• New platforms and entrance at Cardiff Queen Street station
• an additional platform at Barry station
• improved infrastructure on the Rhymney Valley line at Caerphilly and Tir-Phil
• improved infrastructure at Cogan
• line-speed improvements on the City Line
• a new platform at Pontypridd

 

[Gareth Marston]

All this work was being discussed 10 years ago as a solution to the then perceived issues facing the 20m length 2 car DMU network around Cardiff. How relevant it all is to today and the future is perhaps open to question. We've had massive growth is usage since then Ebbw Vale and Vale Of Glamorgan re openings and of course electrification is now on the cards and total fleet replacements with EMU's by 2018/2019.

Queen St's Island platform is perhaps the busiest in the UK with c 2 million using it per annum now, the extra platforms there are needed as much for health and safety issues as anything else.
However the turnbacks at Caerphilly, Pontypridd and Barry are leftovers from a plan to run the network as a 2 car DMU one with the services heading out further being kept short and stock concentrated in the more "central" cores. It will be interesting to see how we now fit a policy of 30 min frequencies from the extremity's of the Cardiff region and 3 car 23m EMU vehicles into it. Growth from the outer parts has outstripped predictions and is there really any justification for 6 tph 3 car EMU service from Caerphilly into Cardiff in the off peak? or 8tph from Pontypridd?

 

[Markdvdman]

All this work was being discussed 10 years ago as a solution to the then perceived issues facing the 20m length 2 car DMU network around Cardiff. How relevant it all is to today and the future is perhaps open to question. We've had massive growth is usage since then Ebbw Vale and Vale Of Glamorgan re openings and of course electrification is now on the cards and total fleet replacements with EMU's by 2018/2019.

Queen St's Island platform is perhaps the busiest in the UK with c 2 million using it per annum now, the extra platforms there are needed as much for health and safety issues as anything else.
However the turnbacks at Caerphilly, Pontypridd and Barry are leftovers from a plan to run the network as a 2 car DMU one with the services heading out further being kept short and stock concentrated in the more "central" cores. It will be interesting to see how we now fit a policy of 30 min frequencies from the extremity's of the Cardiff region and 3 car 23m EMU vehicles into it. Growth from the outer parts has outstripped predictions and is there really any justification for 6 tph 3 car EMU service from Caerphilly into Cardiff in the off peak? or 8tph from Pontypridd?

I question their reasoning. The core is to allow for extra services and to prevent bottlenecks. The problem is that the bottlenecks currently are horrendous at peak times. How do they think bottlenecks will ease whilst allowing MORE services? I use Merthyr to Cadoxton regularly and the times I am late for work is pathetic to be honest. Cardiff to Barry is frankly even worse! I guess the signalling work and changes at Cogan will help but putting more services on will just keep the bottlenecks going.

I just hope I am wrong!

 

[anthony263]

Personally despite how busy the valley lines are at rush hour at the moment what is needed is more carriages not additional services.

The Rhymney could certainly do with 6 carriage trains during the peaks at least between Cardiff & Bargoed.

If there was enough rolling stock available I would liek to see the cityline services extended north of Radyr to Pontypridd once the new bay platform is opened there.

 

[rf_ioliver]

I notice there's mention of an additional platform at Pontypridd, does this means reinstating the currently unused "long, through" platform or reinstating one of the south facing bays?

NB: Haven't been to Pontypridd in a long time and the only reference I have at the moment for the layout of Pontypridd is Chapman's book on the LLTVR..

t.

Ian

 

[hilly]

ideally they would split the taff (treherbert/aberdare/merthyr) and rhymney (rhymney/coryton) services before queen street - unfortunatley this would require widening the newport road bridge to 4 tracks, which would probably be very expensive. I think the current thinking is to have 2 up valley and 2 down valley platforms so that trains can be brought in while the previous service is loading up

 

[Pugland53]

I question their reasoning. The core is to allow for extra services and to prevent bottlenecks. The problem is that the bottlenecks currently are horrendous at peak times. How do they think bottlenecks will ease whilst allowing MORE services? I use Merthyr to Cadoxton regularly and the times I am late for work is pathetic to be honest. Cardiff to Barry is frankly even worse! I guess the signalling work and changes at Cogan will help but putting more services on will just keep the bottlenecks going.

I just hope I am wrong!

What time train do you catch from Merthyr? Maybe if you are late so often you could get up half hour earlier and get an earlier train? Merthyr isn't generally one of the lines where trains are consistently late, Treherbert on the other hand.....

 

[anthony263]

All this work was being discussed 10 years ago as a solution to the then perceived issues facing the 20m length 2 car DMU network around Cardiff. How relevant it all is to today and the future is perhaps open to question. We've had massive growth is usage since then Ebbw Vale and Vale Of Glamorgan re openings and of course electrification is now on the cards and total fleet replacements with EMU's by 2018/2019.

Queen St's Island platform is perhaps the busiest in the UK with c 2 million using it per annum now, the extra platforms there are needed as much for health and safety issues as anything else.
However the turnbacks at Caerphilly, Pontypridd and Barry are leftovers from a plan to run the network as a 2 car DMU one with the services heading out further being kept short and stock concentrated in the more "central" cores. It will be interesting to see how we now fit a policy of 30 min frequencies from the extremity's of the Cardiff region and 3 car 23m EMU vehicles into it. Growth from the outer parts has outstripped predictions and is there really any justification for 6 tph 3 car EMU service from Caerphilly into Cardiff in the off peak? or 8tph from Pontypridd?

Isnt the plan now to have the 4 carriage class 315's and a limited number of 3 carriage class 313's (Most likely for the cityline route) for the Cardiff Valley lines?.

Unless of course it is decided to reduce the class 315's to 3 carriage units.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I notice there's mention of an additional platform at Pontypridd, does this means reinstating the currently unused "long, through" platform or reinstating one of the south facing bays?

NB: Haven't been to Pontypridd in a long time and the only reference I have at the moment for the layout of Pontypridd is Chapman's book on the LLTVR..

t.

Ian

I think they plan on re-opening on of the south facing bay platforms

 

[WelshZ]

Isnt the plan now to have the 4 carriage class 315's and a limited number of 3 carriage class 313's (Most likely for the cityline route) for the Cardiff Valley lines?.

Unless of course it is decided to reduce the class 315's to 3 carriage units.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I think they plan on re-opening on of the south facing bay platforms

From what I have heard 315's are going to be temporary similar to the class 308? where for WYPTE with new build units expected in the 2020's. In regards to Pontypridd I use the stations most weekdays and in my opinion the platform opposite no1 should be re-instated as platform 3 as it would be covered by the trainshed and keep us valley commuters dry

It will be sad to see the pacers leave

 

[krus_aragon]

I notice there's mention of an additional platform at Pontypridd, does this means reinstating the currently unused "long, through" platform or reinstating one of the south facing bays?

NB: Haven't been to Pontypridd in a long time and the only reference I have at the moment for the layout of Pontypridd is Chapman's book on the LLTVR..

t.

Ian

I don't know exactly where they intend to site the bay platform, but I guess that it's the southern-most bay of the disused side of the island platform. (From memory, the platform face that's still used only had north-facing bays.) The rationalised layout north of Pontypridd means there's no room for a through road on the disused side to get to the bridge over Sardis Road.

ideally they would split the taff (treherbert/aberdare/merthyr) and rhymney (rhymney/coryton) services before queen street - unfortunatley this would require widening the newport road bridge to 4 tracks, which would probably be very expensive. I think the current thinking is to have 2 up valley and 2 down valley platforms so that trains can be brought in while the previous service is loading up

The plan to replace the Newport Road bridge was shelved about two years ago, in order to avoid the Works Order, expense, & traffic chaos etc. An announcement at the time said they could get 16tph through Queen St without it. The 4 platform plan is my understanding, plus you can loop a train in one platform to let a late-running service pass it and get them back in the right order.

 

[ValleyLines142]

If there was enough rolling stock available I would liek to see the cityline services extended north of Radyr to Pontypridd once the new bay platform is opened there.

That's not a bad shout actually. I think people on the Coryton side travelling to Pontypridd would change at Queen Street and go via Llandaff as that's quicker, but for those on the west side of the City Line, such as myself!, they would benefit from this, as it would save having to change at the bottleneck that is Central! I was originally going to go to Glamorgan Uni up in the Trefforest campus and a direct service from Waun-Gron would have been great! As such I'm now in Bristol anyway!

I also think direct services from the City Line to the Vale of Glamorgan would be useful as well! Using the Penarth Curve, that at the moment is mainly used by freight. Having said that, a few Sunday's ago when Cardiff City were playing, Arriva operated a Ninian Park to Barry Island service, which was very good! Could there be a possibility of running some of the trains from the Valleys to the Vale via the City Line? i.e. Merthyr/Aberdare/Treherbert - Pontypridd - Radyr - all stations on City Line - Grangetown (via Penarth Curve) and so on? Or realistically, is there much more demand on the line via Llandaff? Having two lines between Radyr and Cardiff I think is one HUGE advantage!

 

[Markdvdman]

What time train do you catch from Merthyr? Maybe if you are late so often you could get up half hour earlier and get an earlier train? Merthyr isn't generally one of the lines where trains are consistently late, Treherbert on the other hand.....

I get the first possible train at 6:38am. It is not so much the lateness from Merthyr - there is almost always something in between! To be fair - it is not always Arriva's fault - there are scum out there who obstruct the line at certain points as well.

Normally though, the bottlenecks at Cardiff, and also the schoolkids getting on at Grangetown trying to avoid the guard for paying the fair to Cogan is another delay! However, it is quite funny when the guard tells them the CCTV will capture them for not paying
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

From what I have heard 315's are going to be temporary similar to the class 308? where for WYPTE with new build units expected in the 2020's. In regards to Pontypridd I use the stations most weekdays and in my opinion the platform opposite no1 should be re-instated as platform 3 as it would be covered by the trainshed and keep us valley commuters dry

It will be sad to see the pacers leave

Sad to see the Pacers leave? Try getting on the 2 car pacer set to Cardiff from Cadoxton when there is a rugby international on! I hate those trains. They are awfully bad coming out of Cardiff towards Merthyr at peak time if they are slightly late. The delays get worse as you go along. They are very uncomfortable if you are even remotely close to tall and the lack of bogies make a dreadfully uncomfortable ride.

Mind you that is my opinion of course

 

[anthony263]

I will be glad to see the pacers leave to be honest although to be fair I think they have done a good job being the backbone of the Cardiff Valley Lines network all these years.

Anyway only 5 more years to go before we start seeing the wires being put and up and
1st of our emu's start arriving.

In fact my money is on the cityline being the 1st of the services to go over to electric traction although the Cardiff Bay service could beat it

 

[fgwrich]

The plan to replace the Newport Road bridge was shelved about two years ago, in order to avoid the Works Order, expense, & traffic chaos etc. An announcement at the time said they could get 16tph through Queen St without it. The 4 platform plan is my understanding, plus you can loop a train in one platform to let a late-running service pass it and get them back in the right order.

So by the sounds of it, the plan is to create a similar set up to that at Penryn then?

 

[krus_aragon]

I also think direct services from the City Line to the Vale of Glamorgan would be useful as well! Using the Penarth Curve, that at the moment is mainly used by freight. Having said that, a few Sunday's ago when Cardiff City were playing, Arriva operated a Ninian Park to Barry Island service, which was very good! Could there be a possibility of running some of the trains from the Valleys to the Vale via the City Line? i.e. Merthyr/Aberdare/Treherbert - Pontypridd - Radyr - all stations on City Line - Grangetown (via Penarth Curve) and so on? Or realistically, is there much more demand on the line via Llandaff? Having two lines between Radyr and Cardiff I think is one HUGE advantage!

I can't see regular Penarth curve services ever being practical, given the sheer number of people that embark/disembark at Central or Queen St. It'd have to call at Central and reverse to make it viable for anything except football specials. On that note, I didn't know that Arriva were serving Ninian Park post-match again, having stopped because of the large crowds. Is this a change in policy, or a one-off?

The main plan for the City Line is to start running some services (Cardiff-Merthyr) fast to Radyr in between the current services. The single-track portion behind Canton Depot is being redoubled to accommodate this.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

so by the sounds of it, the plan is to create a similar set up to that at penryn then?

I'm not familiar with Penryn, but from it's Wikipedia page, I'd say no. The idea is more of overtaking than passing oncoming traffic. Here's the layout as I imagine it, in glorious ASCII-mation:

Current:                      
                 PLATFORM
               -==========----------->Bay
              /            \       /
        -----/--==========--\-----/-->Central
                 PLATFORM        /
Valleys<--------==========------/----

                 DISUSED


Redeveloped:
                      ====--\
                 PLATFORM    \
               -==========----------->Bay
              /            \       /
        -----/--==========--\-----/-->Central
                 PLATFORM        /
Valleys<-----\--==========--/---/----
              \            /
               -==========-
                 PLATFORM

The current topmost platform (3) is only actually used for the Bay shuttle service. The future crossovers at the Central end are pure conjecture on my part.

 

[fgwrich]

Ah ok. The layout down in Penryn on the Falmouth Branch has now been changed to this.



This has been done without the need to re-instate the second platform (which would require a bridge / ramps / lifts etc). Which then also allows the up? service to arrive before the down service, allowing the down service to overtake it using the loop. in the station. Neat bit of design allowing one platform to be used for two services.

Sorry - Here's the Wikipedia diagram.

 

[OxtedL]

Sorry - Not sure as to what's going on. I'll draw a quick version in Paint.

Change the "Quote" tags to CODE tags and see if that works.

Or, link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Penryn_track_diagram_2009.png

Unlikely to be adopted anywhere where you are allowed to spend money.

 

[Solaris]

This might have an impact... http://www.walesonline.co.uk/busin...crossrail-transport-network-91466-32526982/

 

[Gareth Marston]

This might have an impact... http://www.walesonline.co.uk/busin...crossrail-transport-network-91466-32526982/

Whilst I agree that light rail is the solution to the east-west public transport axis in Cardiff the only way it will happen is if the Welsh Government cancels its road building plans entirely- there simply is not the £ about for the foreseeable future to do both. The First Minister has been on the record numerous times saying that Wales should have borrowing powers to build schools, hospitals, roads to my knowledge rail or light rail he has not mentioned.

The wider case for rail/light rail/public transport has to be made and why it should be prioritised over roads rather than individual pet schemes being floated.

 

[ValleyLines142]

I can't see regular Penarth curve services ever being practical, given the sheer number of people that embark/disembark at Central or Queen St. It'd have to call at Central and reverse to make it viable for anything except football specials.

Yes sorry, I should have realised before posting. A reverse at Central would be the only option but then that defeats the object and you may as well go back to the option of doing the current method of changing once.

On that note, I didn't know that Arriva were serving Ninian Park post-match again, having stopped because of the large crowds. Is this a change in policy, or a one-off?

Yes, they normally do skip Ninian Park but I think this was a one-off. This was on a Sunday too, and of course the City Line doesn't even have a Sunday service!

The main plan for the City Line is to start running some services (Cardiff-Merthyr) fast to Radyr in between the current services. The single-track portion behind Canton Depot is being redoubled to accommodate this.

That does sound a good plan to avoid congestion on the busier route via Llandaff; a few Treherbert services run fast to Radyr. It's just annoying for us poor buggers in between at Ninian Park and Waun-Gron Park! :P

 

[PaulHarding150]

... is there really any justification for 6 tph 3 car EMU service from Caerphilly into Cardiff in the off peak? or 8tph from Pontypridd?

Lots of the Stations north of Cardiff Queen Street had their platforms lengthened to accomodate 6 car Valley Line trains, this was paid for by WAG but ATW don't have the extra rolling stock.

On that note, I didn't know that Arriva were serving Ninian Park post-match again, having stopped because of the large crowds. Is this a change in policy, or a one-off?

It started again a few months after they stopped, City Fans kicked up quite a fuss. There are new signs at Grangetown encouraging you to alight here for the football, but unless you're coming from the Vale you're going to head to Ninian Park.




On a slightly different point, the redevelopment of Queen Street and the new platform at Cardiff Central all tie into the Cardiff Area resignaling which if I'm correct is due to finish at some point in 2014.

Does anyone know when either the electrification of the mainline or the valley lines are due to/likely to begin?

 

[WelshBluebird]

It started again a few months after they stopped, City Fans kicked up quite a fuss. There are new signs at Grangetown encouraging you to alight here for the football, but unless you're coming from the Vale you're going to head to Ninian Park.

I thought they reinstalled pre-match calls at Ninian Park, but not post-match.

(the justification being the passenger numbers and more spread out over a few hours before the match so the issues with passenger load on the trains and on the platform are not as large, but post-match the passenger numbers are crammed into a much shorter period of time, so it puts more pressure on the station itself and the services).

It has been a while since I have caught a city line train to / from a match though, so I'm not really sure.

 

[anthony263]

Does anyone know when either the electrification of the mainline or the valley lines are due to/likely to begin?

Some point in 2017 I would have thought although I am not sure which part of the Valley lines will see the wires 1st.

My guess would be the Maesteg & Ebbw Vale branches since they are connected directly to the mainline.

After these once the wires have reached Swansea next line to be wired will be from Bridgend via the Vale of glamorgan

 

[76020]

The valley lines will not be electric much before 2019, therefore the Class 313's will be 44 years old by then, the 315's will be 39 years old, therefore it is really worth it to refurbish them bearing in mind that when the Class 308's were transferred to the Leeds area they were in their mid 30's and lasted only another 4-5 years after their refurbishment.
Another issue is that what will run on the NE London Lines after Crossrail starts in 2018, the Class 315 cannot go on forever and the 317's will be heading towards 40.
Will the 313/5's beat the A stock on the Met line for years of service I wonder, i.e. 50 years?

 

[D365]

The valley lines will not be electric much before 2019, therefore the Class 313's will be 44 years old by then, the 315's will be 39 years old, therefore it is really worth it to refurbish them bearing in mind that when the Class 308's were transferred to the Leeds area they were in their mid 30's and lasted only another 4-5 years after their refurbishment.
Another issue is that what will run on the NE London Lines after Crossrail starts in 2018, the Class 315 cannot go on forever and the 317's will be heading towards 40.
Will the 313/5's beat the A stock on the Met line for years of service I wonder, i.e. 50 years?

A refurb similar to that being trialled on 317722, with new interiors and AC traction, could see units last 10-20 more years, barring any serious problems with carriage bodies. I reckon refurbished ex-GN 317/1s and 321/4s as well as the ex-SX 317/7s could displace the remaining Anglia 315s.

 

[anthony263]

Maybe we could have those refurbished class 314's from Scotrail if they decide to order additional class 380's.

How bad is the corrosion problem on the class 315's as I have heard it was pretty bad on a few units

 

[PaulHarding150]

Maybe we could have those refurbished class 314's from Scotrail if they decide to order additional class 380's.

God, couldn't it be something newer?

ScotRail's 314s where built in 1979 in 2019 they'll be 40 years old that'll make them older than (most of) the stuff down here at the moment.

Don't get me wrong age is but a number, but all that investment in the area only to be give 2nd (and more) hand 40 year old trains.

 

[anthony263]

God, couldn't it be something newer?

ScotRail's 314s where built in 1979 in 2019 they'll be 40 years old that'll make them older than (most of) the stuff down here at the moment.

Don't get me wrong age is but a number, but all that investment in the area only to be give 2nd (and more) hand 40 year old trains.

I too would like to get some new rolling stock but we will just have to make do with what is being offered at the moment

 

[D365]

I believe having PEPs (most likely 315s in Wales, which can be shortened by 1 car?) and Mk3 EMUs available for cascade within the near future has improved the BCR for electrification on a number of lines.