Carmont enquiry to start in January

[matchmaker]

The Fatal Accident Inquiry (FAI) into the deaths in the Carmont derailment will commence at Aberdeen Sheriff Court on 29th January

Carmont

From BBC news

The first stage of the fatal accident inquiry process after the Stonehaven train derailment in which three men died is to be held next month, it has been announced.

The Aberdeen to Glasgow service derailed at Carmont after hitting a landslide following heavy rain in 2020.

Driver Brett McCullough, 45, conductor Donald Dinnie, 58, and passenger Christopher Stuchbury, 62, died.

Network Rail was fined £6.7m last year after admitting a series of failings which led to the deaths. The fatal accident inquiry (FAI) process is expected to begin with a preliminary hearing at Aberdeen Sheriff Court in January.

 

[RGM654]

If RAIB has identified what went wrong and what actions are needed to make things safer in future, and a criminal court has assigned blame, what is now the purpose of this further inquiry?

 

[swt_passenger]

If RAIB has identified what went wrong and what actions are needed to make things safer in future, and a criminal court has assigned blame, what is now the purpose of this further inquiry?

Isn’t the FAI procedure the (near) equivalent to an inquest? Was it opened and adjourned until after the court case?

 

[GordonT]

Under Scottish law, one of the mandatory reasons for holding a Fatal Accident Inquiry is where a fatal accident occurred at work.
This of course was the case for two of the deceased. The FAI is the nearest thing we have to an inquest in Scotland and is called by the Procurator Fiscal of which there are eleven procurators fiscal in Scotland, each covering a geographical area or jurisdiction with a central office.

 

[GusB]

If RAIB has identified what went wrong and what actions are needed to make things safer in future, and a criminal court has assigned blame, what is now the purpose of this further inquiry?

Isn’t the FAI procedure the (near) equivalent to an inquest? Was it opened and adjourned until after the court case?

We don't have inquests (or coroners) in Scotland. See:

Our role in investigating deaths | COPFS

Death investigations are conducted by COPFS on behalf of the Lord Advocate. COPFS investigates all sudden, suspicious, accidental and unexplained deaths.

www.copfs.gov.uk

When someone dies in Scotland, a death certificate is normally issued by a doctor and the person can then be buried or cremated.

If a doctor is required to report a death to COPFS, a death certificate cannot be issued by the doctor until the report is sent. Doctors report deaths to us in line with guidance to medical practitioners.

The Crown Office & Procurator Fiscal Service has a web page explaining FAIs, which you may find helpful:

Guide to Fatal Accident Inquiries | COPFS

Answers to common questions about fatal accident inquiries (FAI).

www.copfs.gov.uk

What is a Fatal Accident Inquiry (FAI)?
A Fatal Accident Inquiry (FAI) is a public hearing to establish what happened to cause a sudden, unexplained or suspicious death. A Fatal Accident Inquiry could take place in a court, another public building or online.

The purpose of a Fatal Accident Inquiry is to establish what happened and prevent future deaths from happening in similar circumstances.

If there is a criminal prosecution following a death investigation, that will usually take place before an FAI. In some cases, an FAI does not need to be held if all the issues that would have been explored at that FAI were covered during the prosecution.

What types of deaths require FAIs?
Fatal Accident Inquiries must take place when someone dies in legal custody or when someone dies in an accident at work. They can also be held in other circumstances if it is decided that this is in the public interest.

A Fatal Accident Inquiry is not held for every death where we are carrying out further investigations. In some cases, our investigation does not identify any issues that need to be explored at an FAI. Sometimes our investigation may find that lessons have already been learned.

Except in cases where an FAI must be held, COPFS decides whether it is in the public interest for an FAI to take place. We will make that decision at the end of our investigation.

Although it is our decision, we will always ask you for your views before we make that decision. We will also let you know if there is going to be a Fatal Accident Inquiry. You have a right to ask for that decision to be reviewed if you do not agree with it.

 

[matchmaker]

Under Scottish law, one of the mandatory reasons for holding a Fatal Accident Inquiry is where a fatal accident occurred at work.
This of course was the case for two of the deceased. The FAI is the nearest thing we have to an inquest in Scotland and is called by the Procurator Fiscal of which there are eleven procurators fiscal in Scotland, each covering a geographical area or jurisdiction with a central office.

Yes, mandatory as two of the deceased were working. Being held at Aberdeen rather than the local court (Stonehaven) as Aberdeen Sheriff Court has far more facilities than Stonehaven - for example, Stonehaven only has one courtroom, Aberdeen has several.

 

[Indigo Soup]

Under Scottish law, one of the mandatory reasons for holding a Fatal Accident Inquiry is where a fatal accident occurred at work.

There are certain exceptions, which probably don't apply in this case.

Interestingly, though, the language around 'circumstances giving rise to serious public concern' is specific from the Inquiries into Fatal Accidents and Sudden Deaths etc. (Scotland) Act as grounds for a discretionary (rather than mandatory) inquiry.

 

[swt_passenger]

We don't have inquests (or coroners) in Scotland.

I knew that from the original thread. I was really only asking the general question; as an FAI takes place after criminal proceedings are completed, then like with an inquest does it get initially opened at the time of the incident and is it then adjourned until after the said criminal case?

 

[matchmaker]

I knew that from the original thread. I was really only asking the general question; as an FAI takes place after criminal proceedings are completed, then like with an inquest does it get initially opened at the time of the incident and is it then adjourned until after the said criminal case?

No, generally, the FAI does not start until the conclusion of any criminal proceedings. However, I have seen a witness at an FAI warned that they did not have to answer any questions that might have incriminated them.

 

[PG]

A virtual preliminary hearing was held at Aberdeen Sheriff Court today. Sheriff Derek Pyle continued this until 28th March this year.

He fixed the date for a continued preliminary hearing for March 28 at 10am, to be held virtually, and asked that parties raise any issues with the findings of the RAIB report no later than seven days in advance.

He said: “My hope is that by that time parties will be clear about what the issues are and how long the inquiry is going to take.”

 

[Morayshire]

Could be into autumn before the FAI gets going according to the BBC.

A fatal accident inquiry (FAI) into the Stonehaven train derailment in which three men died could last about 12 weeks, a hearing has been told.

The Aberdeen to Glasgow service derailed at Carmont after hitting a landslide following heavy rain in 2020. Driver Brett McCullough, 45, conductor Donald Dinnie, 58, and passenger Christopher Stuchbury, 62, died.

Network Rail was fined £6.7m in 2023 after admitting a series of failings which led to the deaths.
A preliminary remote hearing was told the FAI would be a large-scale inquiry. The next hearing will be held in March, to allow more discussions on the way forward.

Alex Prentice KC, for the Crown, said it was believed the inquiry could last "about 12 weeks", although timings could change.

He said it was a "significant" inquiry involving multiple fatalities, and described the "tragic incident" as remaining of "serious public concern".

Sheriff Principal Derek Pyle said there was no prospect of all the parties involved being ready to proceed with the inquiry itself before he retires in June.

Inquiries will now be made into when and where the inquiry will be held.

It is thought that could be Autumn at the earliest.

The next preliminary hearing will be on 28 March.

The derailment happened back in 2020

Network Rail admitted a number of maintenance and inspection failures before the crash in August 2020.

It also admitted failing to warn the driver that part of the track was unsafe or tell him to reduce his speed.

The judge, Lord Matthews, said no penalty could compensate for the loss suffered by the families of those who died and the people injured.
The train hit a landslide near Stonehaven after heavy rain in an area where a drainage system had been incorrectly installed.

The 06:38 service to Glasgow had been unable to complete its journey due to the conditions and was returning to Aberdeen when the accident happened.

A recording of the driver showed he queried with a signaller if any reduced speed was needed to return north.

He was told everything was fine for normal speed.

The train struck debris from a landslide on the track, derailed and collided with a bridge parapet.

BBC article

 

[tumbledown]

A virtual preliminary hearing was held

So there's no requirement for the proceedings to be public then?

 

[PG]

So there's no requirement for the proceedings to be public then?

I am unable to answer this with any certainty. Hopefully someone suitably knowledgeable will be able to advise.

 

[eastdyke]

They are held in public but may be online.

Guide to Fatal Accident Inquiries | COPFS

Answers to common questions about fatal accident inquiries (FAI).

www.copfs.gov.uk

Extract:

What is a Fatal Accident Inquiry (FAI)?​

A Fatal Accident Inquiry (FAI) is a public hearing to establish what happened to cause a sudden, unexplained or suspicious death. A Fatal Accident Inquiry could take place in a court, another public building or online.
The purpose of a Fatal Accident Inquiry is to establish what happened and prevent future deaths from happening in similar circumstances.
If there is a criminal prosecution following a death investigation, that will usually take place before an FAI. In some cases, an FAI does not need to be held if all the issues that would have been explored at that FAI were covered during the prosecution.

 

[tumbledown]

Online is not In Public.

 

[Western Gaffer]

Online is not In Public.

It would appear that COPFS disagrees with you, based on the above extract - what's your specific counter-argument here?

 

[Indigo Soup]

Online is not In Public.

Online is not not in public either.

I am attending a public meeting online later today. I would not be able to attend that meeting if it was not online, and nor would the majority of the attendees. In that case, being online is a great benefit to accessibility.

 

[typefish]

Online is not In Public.

I've attended tax tribunals virtually as a member of the public before. As long as the clerks of the court properly handle your request to attend a virtual session, then it most certainly is in public.

 

[RGM654]

"The purpose of a Fatal Accident Inquiry is to establish what happened and prevent future deaths from happening in similar circumstances."
That seems exactly the same as the purpose of the RAIB investigation. Is it expected that the FAI might come to different conclusions? Or does the Procurator Fiscal and/or the Sheriff have power to compel actions that the RAIB can only recommend?

 

[68000]

Not sure what is to be gained with this FAI given the fact (as stated above), the RAIB has already established the facts of the accident and criminal charges were brought under H&S legislation.

Is this FAI to apportion culpability at individuals?

 

[Morayshire]

Pretty certain this has been covered in this thread before but to restate the position.

As people died at their place of work then a FAI is required to be held under Scots Law.

Guide to FAI - Procurator Fiscals Office

Fatal Accident Inquiries must take place when someone dies in legal custody or when someone dies in an accident at work. They can also be held in other circumstances if it is decided that this is in the public interest.

 

[Western Sunset]

So is the FAI basically to cover legal niceities/due process with differing Scottish law? Surely all the answers have already been found? What new information/angles will be taken?

Due respects to all involved/affected by this tragic incident, but surely this will go over all the same ground again.

 

[Western Gaffer]

So is the FAI basically to cover legal niceities/due process with differing Scottish law?

Differing from what? The accident occurred in Scotland so that's the legal system that applies - what does it matter if other legal jurisdictions are different?

 

[endecotp]

Differing from what?

Well not actually differing much from the situation in England, where essentially the same thing would hapen and be called an inquest.

 

[PyrahnaRanger]

If as per post 10 above, it's been asked for any issues with the RAIB investigation to be submitted by the end of March, does that suggest that the FAI can effectively go "what they said", given RAIB have done all of the investigations and have the specialist knowledge of the field or will the FAI have to cover the same ground?

 

[Indigo Soup]

If as per post 10 above, it's been asked for any issues with the RAIB investigation to be submitted by the end of March, does that suggest that the FAI can effectively go "what they said", given RAIB have done all of the investigations and have the specialist knowledge of the field or will the FAI have to cover the same ground?

I suspect that the FAI will at the very least form a view on whether the recommendations of the RAIB investigation have been adequately implemented.

I believe that an FAI also has greater powers to compel witnesses to appear in front of the inquiry, to determine fault, and to require a response to its determination.

 

[cf111]

Not sure what is to be gained with this FAI given the fact (as stated above), the RAIB has already established the facts of the accident and criminal charges were brought under H&S legislation.

Is this FAI to apportion culpability at individuals?

FAIs cannot apportion blame. This is a mandatory inquiry in terms of Scots Law as people died in the course of their employment, therefore the Lord Advocate must petition for an FAI to be held - she has no choice. One of the purposes of an FAI is to bring public scrutiny on an incident as it is the public interest that any risks of such an incident happening again are minimised.

The determination has legal force. If the Sheriff recommends change in a process or way of working, or any anything else relevant, the person or organisation responsible must publically respond and explain what steps are being taken to implement that recommendation.

RAIB (and MAIB/AAIB) reports are incredibly useful. The report and any further evidence the Inspectors give at the FAI, if they are cited, are treated with great respect by the courts because of the experience and knowledge of those who are involved. They are also technical documents which have a relatively narrow scope. The FAI looks at things more "in the round" and as a court of law has powers that the RAIB does not.

 

[snookertam]

So is the FAI basically to cover legal niceities/due process with differing Scottish law? Surely all the answers have already been found? What new information/angles will be taken?

Due respects to all involved/affected by this tragic incident, but surely this will go over all the same ground again.

It’s a legal requirement in Scotland whenever someone has died during the course of their employment. It doesn’t matter what other enquiry might happen before, or after, as that other enquiry wasn’t a fatal accident enquiry. Someone died at their workplace, therefore a Fatal Accident enquiry is held.

The existence of the RAIB enquiry is a moot point and likely of no interest to the procurator fiscal, and are not likely to make a special case to not hold an FAI just because the RAIB held one.

Would be interested to see if any equivalent legal process in England would be called into question in this way.

 

[Snow1964]

It’s a legal requirement in Scotland whenever someone has died during the course of their employment. It doesn’t matter what other enquiry might happen before, or after, as that other enquiry wasn’t a fatal accident enquiry. Someone died at their workplace, therefore a Fatal Accident enquiry is held.

Although when the law was made, I suspect it wasn't the intention to distress the relatives by opening up the subject 5 years later. Lawmakers presumably expected it to be treated as prompt.

There really ought to be a closure option if it has been investigated by another public body, or at least a quick filing using same conclusions unless significant other evidence is available.

 

[Indigo Soup]

Although when the law was made, I suspect it wasn't the intention to distress the relatives by opening up the subject 5 years later. Lawmakers presumably expected it to be treated as prompt.

It's fairly common for the FAI to take place a few years after the accident, although five years does seem to be an unusually long time. It's usual for the FAI to take place after any criminal prosecution as the court proceedings for the latter may cover all the ground that the FAI would cover. As the prosecution of Network Rail didn't conclude until late 2023, it's hard to see that an FAI could have been held significantly earlier.

There really ought to be a closure option if it has been investigated by another public body, or at least a quick filing using same conclusions unless significant other evidence is available.

It may be of interest that the Quintinshill disaster was the subject of a Board of Trade inquiry, an English inquest, a Scottish fatal accident inquiry, and a criminal prosecution in Scotland.

Would we be having this discussion if the derailment had happened in England and an inquest had been called?