Carnet Ticket - Harpenden to Farringdon FCC

[hippofromvenus]

Hi all

Wonder if anyone can help (I looked through past posts and couldn't find anything on this topic).

I work out of 3 offices - one in Farringdon, and the rest outside of London. When I travel to Farringdon from Harpenden on FCC, I buy a carnet ticket (5xPeak return Journeys at £99.99) which lasts me about 3 weeks.

I am honest and write the dates on the ticket each morning/evening as per the instructions however some 25% of the time they don't let me through the gates EITHER at Harpenden or Farringdon.

99% of the time the gate staff see that the ticket is genuine and honest (i.e. correctly marked and fresh) and let me through.

This morning (29/11/2012) at Farringdon the gate keeper assured me that the ticket had been used and was producing a 'code 51'. He tried to get a member of FCC revenue over to tell me when it had been used, but was unable to summon one.

He then advised I went to the main ticket office, which I did, and was allowed through by showing the ticket.

I have been told that the Oyster card I keep in my wallet might 'wipe' them? Would this bring about the appearance of being used before?

Any info is much appreciated as I HATE being called a liar!

Thanks!

 

[jon0844]

Carnet tickets are a PITA and I no longer intend to use them for a multitude of reasons.. but I was given some good advice by an RPI and that's to also write the date clearly on the back of the ticket. Then there can be no argument about any tampering.

Of course, claiming you've used a ticket before is a different one - as I guess you could attempt to use the same carnet ticket more than once on the same day (hardly likely as in ten-odd years of train travel, I've only once or twice needed to go back into town on the same day).

I tried to look up error code 51 and couldn't find it. I had many problems with mine showing it had expired, when the ticket clearly showed it was within the start/end date. Again, always let through but when RPIs are hungry for blood and they hear the 'seek assistance' beep - some can instantly jump to conclusions.

A break of journey on a carnet (which I've been assured is totally valid) also arouses suspicion because they won't operate gates at all intermediate stations either. And when you try and re-enter, your ticket would have been marked as having already gone through a gate...

 

[island]

Welcome to the forum.

An Oyster card cannot wipe a magnetic stripe.

Code 51 does mean the ticket has been used more times than permitted. Is it possible you may have inadvertently reused a ticket?

There are a lot of issues going on with the FCC carnet tickets.

 

[transmanche]

I tried to look up error code 51 and couldn't find it.

On LU gates; "51 - Already used for 1 journey (single) or 2 journeys (return)"

 

[maniacmartin]

My initial suspicion is that the gatelines have been set to reject carnet tickets so that staff can manually inspect that the date has been written on and is the correct date, to prevent ticket misuse. However, this would appear to not tally with the explanation of Code 51 given above. Interesting.

 

[hippofromvenus]

Thanks all - I'm not sure why I didn't join sooner - I'm forever browsing

I am certain that I had not used this ticket which would lead me to believe the '51' code was erroneous. My question to the unhelpful gentleman on the gate was 'what could have caused this'? He didn't have an answer beyond 'you've used the ticket before'. I guess, in that instance, it was my word against his. If an Oyster would not cause a 'code 51' is there anything else that could?

There are some instances where I meet a client in a St Pancras Cafe in the morning before pressing on to Farringdon - effectively breaking the journey. In the instances where I've done this (which is 'legal'?), the ticket has always worked at Farringdon.

I was told by the more helpful gentleman in the main ticket hall that it could have been a 'faulty batch of tickets'.

That said - I'll take on board the note about writing the date on the back of the ticket too to remove any doubt.

I'm coming down on the carnets being a PITA side of the fence though, but I don't have any other option!

 

[jon0844]

They could work very well if it was easier to write the date on without any chance of the ink not transferring - and any second or third attempt instantly looking like you've tried to tamper with the data (hence the benefit of writing on the back to remove any doubt, unless you mess that up too!).

You should be able to excess an off peak ticket to peak, so that you can buy off-peak carnet tickets and upgrade if you suddenly need to travel in the peak one day. As it stands, you'd need to buy a single ticket (which will cost a lot more) and then leave you out of sync as you've now got an unused ticket in one direction.

Then there's the issue of their acceptance through gatelines, which can be hit and miss and with a range of error codes.. although 51 does actually sound like a genuine error unlike the ones I've had which are erroneous and likely down to faulty encoding of the ticket when issued, or a faulty look up table or something at the gate(s). Still, you could do that with a carnet if you never put the ticket through a gate, and given the problems it's actually easier to go straight to a member of staff.

Although a lot more expensive, the best system would be the scratchcards that FCC give out to season ticket holders. However, they wouldn't work the gates and I guess they're also passes - so could be used multiple times on that same day. Not, as I said, you'd likely want to do that - but I suppose you could pass them on to someone else.

 

[LexyBoy]

Although a lot more expensive, the best system would be the scratchcards that FCC give out to season ticket holders. However, they wouldn't work the gates and I guess they're also passes - so could be used multiple times on that same day. Not, as I said, you'd likely want to do that - but I suppose you could pass them on to someone else.

Or obviously smartcards (much as I have many reservations about them). I can see the carnet model working well on them, though of course this would have to wait until a smartcard scheme is introduced on the route.

 

[hippofromvenus]

I have tried to discuss this issue directly with FCC - online and in the station, but they (on the whole, I am not tarring everyone with this brush) seem uninterested.

Agree re: it being physically difficult to write on the ticket - a thin perm marker does the trick for me.

FCC barely invests into its services so I would imagine the minority of us carnet users are dreaming if we thing we're going to get an infrastructure change like installation of 'composting' / stamping machines.

Fundamentally though, the question that I want an answer to is why would a code 51 show up on a ticket that has not been used? If it happens next week with my new batch of tickets, I am going to be pretty annoyed.

A final question, then, if there isn't an answer to that. Am I allowed to 'break' a journey on a carnet? So travel FCC to St Pancras, get off for a meeting, then get back on a travel the one stop to Farringdon?

The times I have done this, the carnet ticket has NEVER shown a 'code 51' despite the ticket technically being 'used'. Is that legal?

I do not understand ticketing

 

[LexyBoy]

Anytime tickets always allow break of journey, so you're free to start, end or break and resume your journey at any point along the route as many times as you wish during the validity of the ticket (i.e. the marked date in this case).

As regards stamping machines, giving out an "approved" marker pen with carnet tickets would be a cheaper option. It should not be your problem that ticket barriers are defective (a lot of people seem to believe that a ticket isn't valid if it's rejected by a barrier).

 

[hippofromvenus]

Thanks.

Ah well...nothing like a firm and frank discussion of a morning to blow the cobwebs off.

 

[Harlesden]

Here is a list of UTS gate codes. Please feel free to point out any errors as I have no idea how old this list is.

00 - Valid Ticket
01 - UTS Gate Fault (Invalid Tables)
02 - Wrong Type/Direction of use for this type of ticket
03 - BR only - no LUL validity
04 - UTS Gate Fault (Check Table Error)
05 - Technician signed onto machine
06 - Test Ticket
07 - Code Unreadable (Usually when ticket is upside down)
08 - Recoding Error
09 - Ticket Damaged
10 - Carnet Validated (Carnet Validator Only)
11 - Out of Date
12 - Not Valid Now (e.g.. OPTC before 0930, Freedom pass before 0900)
13 - Additional Fare Payable
14 - Not Valid, and is not excessable
15 - No onward validity
16 - Pass at Invalid station
17 - Excess/platform ticket at wrong station
18 - Station Permit at wrong station
19 - Start Date in future
(20 - Spare)
21 - Ticket already used for entry
22 - Ticket already used for exit
23 - Carnet not validated on entry
(24-30 - Spare)
31 - Invalid From OSI
32 - Invalid Into OSI
33 - Illogical Interchange through gates [1]
(34-40 - Spare)
41 - Ticket used three times in quick succession at same station
(entry-exit-entry or exit-entry-exit or purchase-entry-exit)
42 - Double use in one direction
(43-50 - Spare)
51 - Already used for 1 journey (single) or 2 journeys (return)
52 - Pass Reported Lost or Stolen [2]
53 - Permit Reported Lost or Stolen [2]
54 - Possible Dumbbell
(55-60 - Spare)
61 - Too long spent making interchange
62 - Too long spent on journey (carnets only)
63 - Too long on platform (platform tickets only)
64 - Too long on excess (Fare-Paid tickets only)
65 - Entry time exceeded on platform ticket
(66-72 - Spare)
73 - Ticket given back for possible emergency use (e.g.. substitute bus
service) and is not valid at this station
(74-81 - Spare)
82 + 83 - Illogical Use of Ticket
(84-89 - Spare)
90 - Gates set to reject this ticket type (normally child-lock)
(91-98 - Spare)
99 - UTS Gate Fault (Check Time-out)

 

[jon0844]

Or obviously smartcards (much as I have many reservations about them). I can see the carnet model working well on them, though of course this would have to wait until a smartcard scheme is introduced on the route.

Smartcards will definitely solve the problem! Now that GA is getting Oyster up to Broxbourne, I am going to be looking closely at how they charge for travel - as even before we get a full ITSO-compliant system, I'd be happy to see FCC going ahead with Oyster at my station (as they once planned to do) and then I'd just use PAYG.

That would be so much easier!

 

[Deerfold]

Here is a list of UTS gate codes. Please feel free to point out any errors as I have no idea how old this list is.

54 - Possible Dumbbell

Anyone any idea what a dumbell is?

 

[maniacmartin]

A dumbbell I think is what we here call doughnutting perhaps?

 

[Deerfold]

A dumbbell I think is what we here call doughnutting perhaps?

So presumably a ticket from a nearby destination that hadn't gone in through a barrier?

 

[MikeWh]

So presumably a ticket from a nearby destination that hadn't gone in through a barrier?

That sounds about right, especially if the trains on that platform didn't call at the nearby station!

 

[transmanche]

Anyone any idea what a dumbell is?

A classic example would be someone who bought a Z6 Travelcard and a Z1 Travelcard instead of a Z1-6 Travelcard.

They use the Z6 Travelcard in the barrier at the start of their journey and use the Z1 Travelcard to exit the station at the end.

 

[Eagle]

A classic example would be someone who bought a Z6 Travelcard and a Z1 Travelcard instead of a Z1-6 Travelcard.

They use the Z6 Travelcard in the barrier at the start of their journey and use the Z1 Travelcard to exit the station at the end.

Also known as a doughnut. Because it's got a hole in the middle.

 

[pjnathanail]

How would the barrier pick up on this?

 

[jon0844]

Gates can't, which is one reason why it can be argued that gatelines aren't the best (or only) way to protect the railway.

Gates can't detect that someone with a standard class ticket upgraded themselves to first class, or that someone with a KGX to FPK single isn't boarding an EC train to Aberdeen.

I've heard people moaning about having ticket checks because there are gates anyway, but this is why there still needs to be guards doing ticket checks, or roving teams of RPIs in the case of DOO trains.

Considering everyone who gets caught seems to come on here fearing for a hefty fine and criminal record, we simply need to make sure that anyone that thinks doughnutting is okay discovers that not to be the case - in court.

 

[Deerfold]

How would the barrier pick up on this?

The suggestion above is that it would be a ticket from a local barriered station which had not gone through the barrier at that station. Not proof, but an indication.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

A classic example would be someone who bought a Z6 Travelcard and a Z1 Travelcard instead of a Z1-6 Travelcard.

They use the Z6 Travelcard in the barrier at the start of their journey and use the Z1 Travelcard to exit the station at the end.

That'd be very high risk for the saving - a Z6 weekly season is £22. A Z1-2 season is £29.20 which would save you £2.20 a week and not allow you to exit anywhere except Z1, Z2 or Z6. I wonder if this was a thought when Z1 only travelcards were abolished.

I think it tends to be singles usually - Kings X to Finsbury Park and Foxton to Cambridge say where there's DOO services. Obviously blatent intent if you're caught.

 

[transmanche]

How would the barrier pick up on this?

Hmm, not sure. Maybe it can pick up on the fact that the ticket was used to enter a Z1 station the previous evening; and there was no exit then and no entry this morning.

That'd be very high risk for the saving - a Z6 weekly season is £22. A Z1-2 season is £29.20 which would save you £2.20 a week and not allow you to exit anywhere except Z1, Z2 or Z6. I wonder if this was a thought when Z1 only travelcards were abolished.

Yeah it was more of an example really. I know in the past that people have been identified, followed and prosecuted for it.

Another possibility would be someone who bought a Z2 Travelcard, entered at Z2 station in North London and exited at a station in South London; i.e. a journey that you only could have made by going via Z1. Possibly that might cause the the gate to flag a suspected dumbbell?