Carnforth - service pre-closure of the WCML platforms

[Greetlander]

The lost mainline platforms at Carnforth get more than an occasional mention on here. But it has me wondering.

What was the level of service to those platforms prior to closure? Even in THAT film, expresses mostly rushed through. Was it the case that it was a convenient place for an engine swap/taking on water and other than that served little purpose?

 

[hexagon789]

The lost mainline platforms at Carnforth get more than an occasional mention on here. But it has me wondering.

What was the level of service to those platforms prior to closure? Even in THAT film, expresses mostly rushed through. Was it the case that it was a convenient place for an engine swap/taking on water and other than that served little purpose?

I don't think by the time of closure there would still be engines swaps as most trains would be diesel, Class 50s or the odd 47 by that point. Even in steam days, engine swaps were generally at Carlisle I believe and there were water troughs at the likes of Garstang and Tebay for replenishing tenders.

The late-60s 'mainline' service provision appears to be calls by local Preston to Windermere/Barrow services but also some calls by long-distance trains such as the Birmingham-Perth, the Euston-Windermere, the Euston-Barrow etc.

 

[AndrewE]

I don't think by the time of closure there would still be engines swaps as most trains would be diesel, Class 50s or the odd 47 by that point. Even in steam days, engine swaps were generally at Carlisle I believe and there were water troughs at the likes of Garstang and Tebay for replenishing tenders.

The late-60s 'mainline' service provision appears to be calls by local Preston to Windermere/Barrow services but also some calls by long-distance trains such as the Birmingham-Perth, the Euston-Windermere, the Euston-Barrow etc.

The Barrow trains would have used the branch platforms, of course.
I think we have read that the Shap bankers went on at Tebay, unless they were on a boiler washout day when freights were banked from further south, like Carnforth, but I guess that would have been done in the yard south of the station. Passenger trains were apparently piloted from Preston or Lancaster, so no main line platform calls for that reason either... I'll dig out my facsimile "Bradshaws" and see what it says.

 

[The exile]

The lost mainline platforms at Carnforth get more than an occasional mention on here. But it has me wondering.

What was the level of service to those platforms prior to closure? Even in THAT film, expresses mostly rushed through. Was it the case that it was a convenient place for an engine swap/taking on water and other than that served little purpose?

As an irrelevant aside, is it not the case that the shots of expresses rushing through in THAT film are actually at Watford Junction (unless they are seen through the station buffet windows)?

 

[hexagon789]

The Barrow trains would have used the branch platforms, of course.
I think we have read that the Shap bankers went on at Tebay, unless they were on a boiler washout day when freights were banked from further south, like Carnforth, but I guess that would have been done in the yard south of the station. Passenger trains were apparently piloted from Preston or Lancaster, so no main line platform calls for that reason either... I'll dig out my facsimile "Bradshaws" and see what it says.

Yes, sorry. I was thinking more about mainline in terms of long-distance or express (Class 1) trains, but yes the Euston/Barrow would've used the 'branch' platforms at Carnforth.

 

[Gloster]

There were stations at Burton & Holme and Milnthorpe between Carnforth and Oxenholme; the first closed in 1950 and the second in 1968. There was a sparse local service to these: in 1949 they had four northbound services with nothing off Carnforth between 13.45 and 20.57. In its last timetable Milnthorpe had one northbound train at 08.06 and, on Saturdays Only, two late ones.

Southbound in the last timetable there was one morning and one evening. It looks as though you could commute into Kendal or on Saturday have a day out or an evening out in Carnforth.

 

[eldomtom2]

Here are the northbound timetables for the Carnforth mainline platforms from the June 1965 LMR timetable:

Monday-Friday

04:50 to Windermere (17 minutes later on Mondays)
07:43 to Windermere
08:10 to Carlisle
09:08 to Windermere
11:30 to Windermere (Tuesdays and Thursdays only, does not run after 2nd September)
11:43 to Perth
13:05 to Windermere
15:45 to Windermere (starts 6th September)
15:56 to Carlisle
18:48 to Windermere
21:03 to Windermere

Saturdays

04:50 to Windermere
07:43 to Windermere
09:08 to Windermere
11:43 to Perth
12:05 to Penrith (until 21st August)
13:18 to Windermere
15:45 to Windermere (starts 11th September)
15:56 to Carlisle
17:48 to Carlisle (between 10th July and 28th August)
20:47 to Windermere (29 minutes later from 11th September)
20:55 to Carlisle

Sundays

11:29 to Edinburgh and Glasgow
11:45 to Windermere (until 5th September)
13:59 to Windermere (until 5th September)
14:55 to Edinburgh and Glasgow (between 27th June and 22nd August)
14:57 to Edinburgh and Glasgow (from 12th September)
17:21 to Carlisle
21:24 to Carlisle (between 27th June and 5th September)

 

[D Mylchreest]

I believe there was a stopping service from Preston (or Lancaster?) to Carlisle until the end of 1967. I used to get it to observe the trains on Shap incline in 1966-67. There weren't very many though perhaps four in each direction, not sure.

 

[Magdalia]

As an irrelevant aside, is it not the case that the shots of expresses rushing through in THAT film are actually at Watford Junction (unless they are seen through the station buffet windows)?

The platform shots are Carnforth, but the interior buffet shots are not. The platform shots needed to be somewhere rural a long way from London because of the wartime blackout. My understanding was that the interior buffet shots were at Willesden Junction not Watford Junction.

 

[hexagon789]

The platform shots are Carnforth, but the interior buffet shots are not. The platform shots needed to be somewhere rural a long way from London because of the wartime blackout. My understanding was that the interior buffet shots were at Willesden Junction not Watford Junction.

The IMDb says the buffet was mocked up in a studio in Denham.

 

[Gloster]

Reelstreets says that the platform shots with high speed run-throughs were done at Watford Junction, but those involving the cast were done at Carnforth. A lot of sets were used, including ’outside’ ones.

 

[Skiddaw]

I believe there was a stopping service from Preston (or Lancaster?) to Carlisle until the end of 1967. I used to get it to observe the trains on Shap incline in 1966-67. There weren't very many though perhaps four in each direction, not sure.

It's such a shame that service was discontinued and the stations closed. It would be so useful to still have a stopping service for places such as Shap, Clifton, Plumpton, etc.

 

[Gloster]

The Summer 1961 timetable saw three northbound at Tebay and two at Shap Monday to Friday; on Saturday there was an extra ‘late‘ one at Tebay. Southbound was three at Shap and four at Tebay on Monday to Friday and four at both on Saturdays.

Clifton & Lowther had closed in 1938 and Plumpton in 1948. Shap and Tebay lasted until 1968.

 

[Cricketer8for9]

Clearly everyone went by bus in the 30s and 40s. Foreseeing use 80-90 years later requires a better crystal ball than I possess.

 

[AndrewE]

The Summer 1961 timetable saw three northbound at Tebay and two at Shap Monday to Friday; on Saturday there was an extra ‘late‘ one at Tebay. Southbound was three at Shap and four at Tebay on Monday to Friday and four at both on Saturdays.

Clifton & Lowther had closed in 1938 and Plumpton in 1948. Shap and Tebay lasted until 1968.

back to the Carnforth Main Line platforms... The 1938 Bradshaw's facsimile shows more trains calling than I had realised, including Anglo-Scottish trains and (separate) Liverpool and Manchester to Windermere trains. Clearly there is a long history of Northern conurbation to Lake District services!
One train even shows a sleeping car Euston to Carnforth!

As was often the pattern back then, the service was sporadic. In lots of the UK we have got used to the luxury of clock-face departures - well, in the timetable anyway - and sometimes more than one an hour. It's a real challenge to plan a journey using the old Bradshaw!

 

[Gloster]

North along the mainline from Carnforth in Summer 1961 there were at least a dozen trains on a Monday to Friday. The main destination was Windermere, but one or two went over Shap.

 

[Dave W]

Southbound in the last timetable there was one morning and one evening. It looks as though you could commute into Kendal or on Saturday have a day out or an evening out in Carnforth.

A former partner's grandparents lived in Milnthorpe. The station was a fair hike outside the village (although not as egregious as some elsewhere) - a mile and a bit of a tab down a pitch black lane after your night out in Carnforth would have been interesting

 

[Bevan Price]

Carnforth WCML platform departures, May 1968 LMR timetable:

Northbound:
04:55 Kendal & Windermere only (connection off Euston - Barrow sleeper)
07:55 Stations to Windermere.
08:30 Stations except Milnthorpe to Carlisle
08:59 (08:15 Preston - Windermere
10:50 (SX, Summer) (09:35 Blackpool N - Windermere)
11:10 (SX, Summer) (10:55 Morecambe Prom. - Windermere)
13:19 ()9:05 Euston - Windermere)
15:22 Stations except Milnthorpe to Carlisle
16:26 (SO, Summer) (15:00 Blackpool N - Newcastle)
15:35 Windermere
18:52 (17:05 Warrington Bank Quay - Windermere.
20:27 Windermere
21:18 (17:05 Euston - Carlisle)
23:40 (SX) (23:07 Preston - Windermere)

Southbound:
04:04 (Glasgow & Edinburgh - Manchester Exc & Liverpool Lime St) (Sleeper)
08:02 arrival, (06:20 from Carlisle); connection for Preston
08:42 (08:05 Windermere - Preston)
09:41 (08:15 Carlisle - Euston (combines with Barrow portion at Lancaster)
09:51 (SX, Summer) (09:00 Windermere - Blackpool N)
11:39 (11;00 Windermere - Euston)
12:09 (SO) (10:35 Carlisle - Euston)
12:58 arrival, (12:25 from Windermere)
14:22 arrival (13:45 from Windermere)
14:57 (Summer) set down, 11:35 Glasgow & 11:25 Edinburgh - Liverpool Ex)
16:44 (16:10 Windermere - Euston)
17:13 set down (SO, Summer) 13:25 Glasgow Cen - Morecambe Prom.)
17:43 (Summer) (14:00 Glas / 14:05 Edin - Liverpool & Manchester
18:17 (SX, Summer) (17:45 Windermere - Blackpool N)
18:39 (SX, Summer) (17:58 Windermere - Morecambe Prom.)
18:38 (SO & SX in Winter) arrival from Windermere
21:16 arrival (19:45 from Carlisle)
21:31 arrival (20:55 from Windermere)

All ceased when the WCML platforms were closed.

(there were other departures from the Barrow line platforms)

Sundays : Rail replacement buses Carlisle - Preston intermediate stations; some trains diverted via S&C.

 

[Lloyds siding]

I used the main line platforms in 1962. Pretty sure this was a direct service from Liverpool Exchange. A Black 5 in front and mainly Mk 1s with a couple of LMS coaches if I recall correctly. I expect that its destination would have been Glasgow or Windermere. (I should add this was on a Sunday). We then went over to the branch platforms, and I was very excited to go on my first diesel hauled service towards Barrow...didn't have time to check the engine, but I'm pretty sure it was a 40.

 

[Gloster]

Quick’s Chronology gives 4 May 1970 as the date of closure of Carnforth’s main line platforms.

 

[Kingston Dan]

Quick’s Chronology gives 4 May 1970 as the date of closure of Carnforth’s main line platforms.

Presumably to do with the WCML electrification to Glasgow?

 

[Greetlander]

So a few expresses and a smattering of regionals and locals. You can see why they closed them (ducks for cover)

 

[AndrewE]

So a few expresses and a smattering of regionals and locals. You can see why they closed them (ducks for cover)

I think the closure probably was justified...
a) relatively few trains (and I think I remember maybe the platform edge clearances needed widening for higher speed electric expresses passing through)
b) pass-to-call time for expresses to Lancaster only about 4 mins
c) start-to-stop time back to Carnforth of 9 mins for pax needing to change onto the Barrow or Leeds trains - so (like Haymarket) nice to have, but not really a journey-breaker.

So overall it's not a big problem (even though I would usually oppose any changes which contribute to the continuing incremental degradation of the passenger experience!)

 

[ludof10a]

Mainline platforms were taken out of use because of passenger clearance under the Warton Road bridge. They were only about one person wide! However, as part of the electrification, Warton Road bridge was rebuilt and platform clearance could easily have been sorted......but, of course, it was not. A shame really, as for the first four years of their closure I was travelling to/from Carnforth to Sunderland via Carlisle and Newcastle very regularly, and had to travel via Lancaster. Interestingly, if I now want to travel from Carnforth to Sunderland, the quickest and cheapest route is via Manchester and Leeds. A route I was not allowed to take in the early 70s.