Cars Under The Channel

[RichmondCommu]

G'day everyone.

I've recently read that Peugeot cars are transported by train through France to Calais before being loaded on to a ship and transported to Sheerness!! Why oh why are these cars not being transported under the Channel and then along HS1? Assuming that these trains ran through the night they would be in Sheerness within a couple of hours. Surely there can be no excuses; its an established flow running daily and we have spare class 92's to haul the train.

Your thoughts on this (and any possible explanations) would be very welcome!

Kind regards,

Richmond Commuter!

 

[user15681]

I can't say for definite, but off the top of my head...

- Operationally it would be a bit of a faff, requiring at least 2 classes of loco, as the 92s aren't cleared to Sheerness, and a reversal along the route at either Ebbsfleet (more tricky) or Ashford (much longer)
- I don't know the costs of sea freight, but it might be cheaper than rail, given the complexity
- Not sure how the locals would like the idea of a reduction in usage of the port

 

[starrymarkb]

Could it be that the ship then continues to the Irish Republic, therefore it's probably easier to load all the RHD cars on the same boat as it's sailing anyway and making a quick stop in Sheerness en route to Dublin/Rosslare is cheaper then transhipping them to UK gauge transporters and taking them through the tunnel - IIRC a lot of Pugs also go through Portbury (Bristol)

 

[JohnB57]

I think the main reason may be lack of handling facilities for car transporter trains at Sheerness. And, of course, if transfers were made via the tunnel, there would be no point at all in having the distribution centre there in the first place.

 

[Bald Rick]

It would need UK gauge (and tunnel compliant) transporters all the way from the factory, which would then be tied to that flow unless another manufacturer joined the party.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Could it be that the ship then continues to the Irish Republic, therefore it's probably easier to load all the RHD cars on the same boat as it's sailing anyway and making a quick stop in Sheerness en route to Dublin/Rosslare is cheaper then transhipping them to UK gauge transporters and taking them through the tunnel - IIRC a lot of Pugs also go through Portbury (Bristol)

Your point about the Irish Republic is a good one. However, in terms of Portbury it appears that all the cars exported from the French plants head from Calais to Sheerness. From what I've read Calais receives one train a day from the combined manufacturing plants.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It would need UK gauge (and tunnel compliant) transporters all the way from the factory, which would then be tied to that flow unless another manufacturer joined the party.

Do such transporters exist at the moment? If a transporter can run under the Alps would it also be suitable to run under the Channel? I would have thought that the restrictions are no different to any other wagon currently running through the tunnel i.e. Cargowagons carrying water etc. I'm assuming here than a daily train of cars would be enough to justify leasing a rake of transporters?

 

[richw]

Many Peugeot/ Citroen models are manufactured in Spain. They are carried by LD Lines between Northern Spain and St Nazaire before being moved to the trains.

This discussion has been ongoing on another forum I use, and these posts are quoted from members with "inside" knowledge on that forum. The first made by an experienced contributor in the industry I understand, the second made by LD lines' official verified account on a ferry forum.

Trade cars are the mainstay of the Suardiaz Vigo-Montoir service as well I believe, a service which has just received MoS funding. While road transport would seem to be out of the question for cars in this volume, some may ask why they can't go by rail into France and elsewhere but, without wishing to switch into railway anorak mode, railway through running from Spain into France isn't possible, I've always understood, because the railways in northern Spain are either metre gauge or 5ft 6in Iberian broad gauge while France and most of Europe is the standard gauge of 4ft 8 1/2in. One may wonder why Citroen have established a car plant in North West Spain in the first place but they have and the shipping companies are the beneficiaries of it.

I would maintain my point that a lot of traffic can cause congestion and delays, something a port not a great distance from Poole needs to be aware of but further discussion of this belongs to another thread!

Transporting trade cars isn't an easy process as cars must obviously be delivered perfect so there is a lot to be said for reducing movements.

Land transport whether road of rail carries all sorts of risks you wouldn't immediately think of such as a small stone on the road thrown in the air can result in scratched paintwork. I've even heard of windscreens shattering in tunnels.

For info - many of the trade cars transported from Gijon arrive by rail.

My Citroen was manufactured in Vigo, Spain

 

[RichmondCommu]

I can't say for definite, but off the top of my head...

- Operationally it would be a bit of a faff, requiring at least 2 classes of loco, as the 92s aren't cleared to Sheerness, and a reversal along the route at either Ebbsfleet (more tricky) or Ashford (much longer)
- I don't know the costs of sea freight, but it might be cheaper than rail, given the complexity
- Not sure how the locals would like the idea of a reduction in usage of the port

I must admit I did rather suspect that the Class 92's might have a problem reaching Sheerness! However surely you would only need one other loco which would be a go anywhere class 66?

Whilst I would never want to see anyone out of a job I don't think the locals would have infulence over a possible change! And of course the cars would stil need to be unloaded which would provide jobs for locals.

 

[user15681]

I must admit I did rather suspect that the Class 92's might have a problem reaching Sheerness! However surely you would only need one other loco which would be a go anywhere class 66?

Whilst I would never want to see anyone out of a job I don't think the locals would have infulence over a possible change! And of course the cars would stil need to be unloaded which would provide jobs for locals.

A 66 would probably suffice, but it seems my points weren't the reasons anyway! There was a lot of controversy when Thamesteel ceased etc, and even if it did create jobs over on the rail, the change wouldn't be welcome.

As a side note, I quite like them arriving by ship - it's nice seeing the new cars, still all wrapped up, being driven around.

 

[edwin_m]

Where do they go from Sheerness? If the only reason to use this location is because it's convenient to unload the ship, then perhaps a rail-based distribution could use a site somewhere else. Didn't Peugeot use Corby at one time?

If they did go to Sheerness by rail, for the short distance from the Tunnel a journey on the classic network would probably suffice and would avoid the need to reverse on HS1 at Ebbsfleet. Though I think they'd need a pretty roundabout route to avoid reversing somewhere else.

 

[RichmondCommu]

A 66 would probably suffice, but it seems my points weren't the reasons anyway! There was a lot of controversy when Thamesteel ceased etc, and even if it did create jobs over on the rail, the change wouldn't be welcome.

As a side note, I quite like them arriving by ship - it's nice seeing the new cars, still all wrapped up, being driven around.

In that case what are the reasons? I would be very interested to know.

There's always controversy when jobs are lost / working practices are changed but with the unions being much weaker than they were in the 1970's there are a lot less barriers to change. And that includes manufacturing plants closing i.e. Thamesteel.

My reason for high lighting all of this is that we have an exellent piece of railway infrastructure which we are not making the most of.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Many Peugeot/ Citroen models are manufactured in Spain. They are carried by LD Lines between Northern Spain and St Nazaire before being moved to the trains.

This discussion has been ongoing on another forum I use, and these posts are quoted from members with "inside" knowledge on that forum. The first made by an experienced contributor in the industry I understand, the second made by LD lines' official verified account on a ferry forum.






My Citroen was manufactured in Vigo, Spain

I'm assuming here that it's the cars manufactured in Spain that are heading through Portbury, as mentioned in another post.

 

[user15681]

In that case what are the reasons? I would be very interested to know.

There's always controversy when jobs are lost / working practices are changed but with the unions being much weaker than they were in the 1970's there are a lot less barriers to change. And that includes manufacturing plants closing i.e. Thamesteel.

My reason for high lighting all of this is that we have an exellent piece of railway infrastructure which we are not making the most of.

I meant that the reasons mentioned by others seem more realistic as barriers than those that I mentioned.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Where do they go from Sheerness? If the only reason to use this location is because it's convenient to unload the ship, then perhaps a rail-based distribution could use a site somewhere else. Didn't Peugeot use Corby at one time?

If they did go to Sheerness by rail, for the short distance from the Tunnel a journey on the classic network would probably suffice and would avoid the need to reverse on HS1 at Ebbsfleet. Though I think they'd need a pretty roundabout route to avoid reversing somewhere else.

From Sheerness I believe they go to Queenborough where there are hundreds parked up and then eventually leave the island on car transporters... if I was doing it by rail, I wouldn't even go onto the island for them to then leave again.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Where do they go from Sheerness? If the only reason to use this location is because it's convenient to unload the ship, then perhaps a rail-based distribution could use a site somewhere else. Didn't Peugeot use Corby at one time?

If they did go to Sheerness by rail, for the short distance from the Tunnel a journey on the classic network would probably suffice and would avoid the need to reverse on HS1 at Ebbsfleet. Though I think they'd need a pretty roundabout route to avoid reversing somewhere else.

I'm guessing that from Sheerness they are transported by road to the rest of the UK. I'm assuming here that GEFCO (Peugeot's logistics subsiduary) use Sheerness perhaps because it's the closest port to Calais that can handle cars.

I only suggested HS1 as a route because it might be quicker but as you and others have pointed out using the classic lines would avoid the reversal and would only need one loco.

 

[richw]

I'm assuming here that it's the cars manufactured in Spain that are heading through Portbury, as mentioned in another post.

I would be surprised, as if they were heading for portbury it doesn't seem logical,to ship gijon to st nazaire then onto trains, unless the vehicles LD are transporting are not heading to the uk. This ferry route is a normal passenger route and not a dedicated freight route as well!

 

[Bald Rick]

Your point about the Irish Republic is a good one. However, in terms of Portbury it appears that all the cars exported from the French plants head from Calais to Sheerness. From what I've read Calais receives one train a day from the combined manufacturing plants.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Do such transporters exist at the moment? If a transporter can run under the Alps would it also be suitable to run under the Channel? I would have thought that the restrictions are no different to any other wagon currently running through the tunnel i.e. Cargowagons carrying water etc. I'm assuming here than a daily train of cars would be enough to justify leasing a rake of transporters?

There are certainly UK gauge transporters, although whether they are channel tunnel certified I can't say.

One other point, if the current fleet is doing a daily trip factory-Calais and return, it will need one set of wagons. Tack on an extra 3 hours or so to get through the tunnel and to Sheerness (including an obligatory stop at Dollands Moor so someone can look in the boot for an illegal immigrant, to satisfy Daily Mail readers) - and you will need two sets of wagons to maintain a consistent daily service. Add in the tunnel access charge, a loco hire, a couple of drivers, the threat of strikes from Calais stevedores (and the resultant threat to local sheep), and it all looks a bit pricey.

 

[Clip]

It would be the end of SHeerness as a serious port if this ever happened.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I meant that the reasons mentioned by others seem more realistic as barriers than those that I mentioned.

Oh sorry I see what you mean To be honest the only real barrier that I can see is having sufficient wagons that are suitable for running through the tunnel. In terms of Peugeots heading for the Irish Republic they could either go via Portbury or by rail to one of the Welsh ports.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It would be the end of SHeerness as a serious port if this ever happened.

To be honest Clip I dare say that would be case but as you and I were both fetched up north of Watford we both know that job losses are nothing new.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I would be surprised, as if they were heading for portbury it doesn't seem logical,to ship gijon to st nazaire then onto trains, unless the vehicles LD are transporting are not heading to the uk. This ferry route is a normal passenger route and not a dedicated freight route as well!

I would be interested to know how cars built in Spain are accessing the UK if what you say is true as they don't appear to be running by train via Cerbere.

 

[Clip]

To be honest Clip I dare say that would be case but as you and I were both fetched up north of Watford we both know that job losses are nothing new.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

.

Indeed. I have an oddly large amount of family who still live on the isle mind you - though non at the port - and its desolate so to take that away would be the death knell

 

[RichmondCommu]

Indeed. I have an oddly large amount of family who still live on the isle mind you - though non at the port - and its desolate so to take that away would be the death knell

Fair play Clip, you clearly know the locality far better than I do! However, living in the South East if you are out of work you have a far better chance of finding work than say in the North East.

 

[Clip]

Fair play Clip, you clearly know the locality far better than I do! However, living in the South East if you are out of work you have a far better chance of finding work than say in the North East.

Indeed but you would probably have to leave the island as the steel works is nt very big anymore(been that long not sure if even they are sitll working)

Interesting though with the mention of the railways and the cars as there is still a rail link that goes across the road there from the port side of things and IIRC still connects up to the mainline off the island. Not sure if thats even been in use for years either. I dont like going back there lol

 

[RichmondCommu]

Indeed but you would probably have to leave the island as the steel works is nt very big anymore(been that long not sure if even they are sitll working)

Interesting though with the mention of the railways and the cars as there is still a rail link that goes across the road there from the port side of things and IIRC still connects up to the mainline off the island. Not sure if thats even been in use for years either. I dont like going back there lol

I've a feeling that the steel plant has completely closed but that's only what I will have read in the press. I bought my wife's car in Chatham which isn't too far from the Isle; two words Clip; bloody hell!

 

[user15681]

Indeed but you would probably have to leave the island as the steel works is nt very big anymore(been that long not sure if even they are sitll working)

Interesting though with the mention of the railways and the cars as there is still a rail link that goes across the road there from the port side of things and IIRC still connects up to the mainline off the island. Not sure if thats even been in use for years either.

Can't remember the last time something actually went across the road on the rail link you're on about - it does connect to the line off though. All the gates are firmly locked these days.

I dont like going back there lol

Neither do I, but alas some days I have to

 

[Tirov]

Today's Railways Europe Magazine are telling us that DB Schenker are searching for car transporters to run direct trains to Sheerness from France.
Looking on Google I can't see a rail connection into the car compound but the map could be out of date or not looking in the correct area. I can see the connection to the steel works that runs alongside the compound but not a link into the storage area.
GEFCO also seem to still using Corby where the direct France/UK car trains used to go to some years ago.
Eurotunnel has reduced their prices so something is going to happen. The question is where and when!

 

[daccer]

I remember the Corby trains being a regular flow. Didnt Swindon also despatch/receive trainloads of cars via the Tunnel. Cars would seem to be the ideal commodity for the Tunnel considering the volumes entering/leaving the country via the ports.

 

[DarloRich]

Do such transporters exist at the moment? If a transporter can run under the Alps would it also be suitable to run under the Channel? I would have thought that the restrictions are no different to any other wagon currently running through the tunnel i.e. Cargowagons carrying water etc. I'm assuming here than a daily train of cars would be enough to justify leasing a rake of transporters?

I dont think you can draw that comparison because of the different loading gauge between the French and British networks therefore you would need to use UK gauged vehicles throughout

 

[user15681]

In related news, vehicle imports through the Port of Sheerness are set to grow by 15% from 330,000 a year to 380,000.

Interesting to learn that DBS are looking into it by rail, though.

 

[starrymarkb]

I would be surprised, as if they were heading for portbury it doesn't seem logical,to ship gijon to st nazaire then onto trains, unless the vehicles LD are transporting are not heading to the uk. This ferry route is a normal passenger route and not a dedicated freight route as well!

I suspect what happens is Cars for France etc are offloaded in St Nazaire for Rail Transport with UK/IRL stuff remaining on the ship (possibly picking up more cars from French Plants) to then head for Portbury, the RoI and possibly beyond. The ship is probably also carrying other Spanish made cars (ie Opel Corsas, Mercedes Vitos, etc)

 

[Tirov]

The boss at Honda Swindon is quotes as saying he wants to go back to rail for the EU when demand picks up! All positive but nothing happening!

 

[another smith]

I spent a summer working over at the Citroen/Peugeot yard in Sheerness, finishing in 2007. I remember the ports rail head was in use then approx 2-3 times a week, cars were only ever imported by ship from Spain and then exported out of Sheerness by rail or truck.

 

[fergusjbend]

Yesterday Peel Ports - owners of Sheerness Docks - announced plans to 'create a new rail link between Liverpool and Sheerness' in order to increase the movement of cars and vans by rail. Details are promised next week. I do not imagine this means new rail infrastructure, except perhaps a new car transporter terminal at Queenborough, just south of Sheerness. Perhaps there might also be developments at Liverpool too.

I suppose the thinking is that ships full of Peugot-Citroen cars arrive at Sheerness and then sail away empty. Why not fill them with Land Rovers and Fords exported from the UK, transported to Sheerness by rail?

Incidentally, Thamesteel at Sheerness has been closed for several years. There is talk of re-opening the rolling mill, but no suggestion of manufacturing steel again. The rail link across the main road from the steel works yard to the docks still exists, but is long disused. The last time I saw it in operation was about ten years ago when a DBS 08 shunted loaded car transporters across.

Fergus