Carstairs remodelling?

[cle]

They want London to Edinburgh surely. An hourly service...change up the assumption of the ECML...

The difference is that Preston and Carlisle are not Newcastle and York, demand-wise, which certainly helps.

I wonder if Carstairs, Watford, Norton and the elusive 135mph could in total shave off 5-10 mins from an Edinburgh journey?

I've no idea where 135 could be done, due to Project 110 on LM, I doubt it could be south of Rugby now. Shame. Maybe the fast inner tracks up the Trent Valley? And the fasts from Stafford to Crewe?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I've no idea where 135 could be done, due to Project 110 on LM, I doubt it could be south of Rugby now. Shame. Maybe the fast inner tracks up the Trent Valley? And the fasts from Stafford to Crewe?

A stretch around Lockerbie was also mooted.

 

[adrock1976]

That doesn't really address the main problem VT is interested in, which is WCML-Edinburgh.
Of all the flows through Carstairs this is the one growing most strongly.
The Birmingham/Manchester-Scotland flows are tending to favour the Edinburgh route over Glasgow, instead of the current alternating pattern.

Could the reason why that Edinburgh is favoured more over Glasgow is because for onward journeys north of the central belt (i.e. Falkirk/Stirling/Perth/Dundee/Inverness) is due to one change of train at either Haymarket or Edinburgh Waverley compared to the lack of Glasgow Crossrail where passengers have to make their own way between Central and Queen Street stations?

Furthermore, another factor may be that it is very difficult or not possible at all to travel from Carlisle to north of the central belt on a direct service. The Caledonian Main Line runs from Citadel station to Greenhill Junction/ northbound to Inverness, yet today, it seems crazy that there are no direct services that run the complete length of the CML.

In peace

Adam

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Furthermore, another factor may be that it is very difficult or not possible at all to travel from Carlisle to north of the central belt on a direct service. The Caledonian Main Line runs from Citadel station to Greenhill Junction/ northbound to Inverness, yet today, it seems crazy that there are no direct services that run the complete length of the CML.

Virgin proposed a direct service to/from Stirling in the failed 2012 bid (for after the wires got there).
That might be resurrected in the 2017 ICWC bid.
Apart from the connectional benefits via Edinburgh, it has grown massively as a tourist and business destination.
TPE recognise this by doubling train lengths on Fri/Sun, and is why VT now runs long trains rather than single Voyagers.

 

[cle]

Having London trains stop at Haymarket before Waverley could have an interesting effect on spreading out demand in Edinburgh itself, and servicing the financial districts and West End more directly.

With Glasgow directs scaled back, not so many services continue past Waverley now from Kings Cross, and after a layover too.

Carlisle to Haymarket is today 1h10. London to Carlisle with the only stop at Preston is 3h5 so to Haymarket could be 4h15 tomorrow. And that is without improvements at Carstairs, Watford, Norton and the potential of 135mph running. Could 4h on the nose to Haymarket be possible?

Might this compete better against flying in regards to business use, and the trams to the business parks also? Much better for Murrayfield too.

If I were Virgin trains, I'd be eyeing up this market and especially that hourly direct Haymarket niche which is more of a USP. Plus Waverley is of course 3 mins later.

 

[Class 170101]

I think it is unlikely the London services will be restored.

When the cross border ECML passengers from Glasgow were analysed there were 2 main markets:

• Glasgow - Newcastle
• Glasgow - Leeds

The number of London - Glasgow via ECML passengers was very small indeed so actually the Cross Country service running to Glasgow offered better connections for more passengers as it provided more direct Leeds - Glasgow journey opportunities.

The biggest problem I have with this though is diesels under the wires particularly whilst XC have a capacity problem on their core network on most trains.

I don't think it matters whether XC or EC provide the service providing the main parts of their repective networks are covered with sufficient capacity for passengers particularly in view of the growing of the electrified network and the difficulties of acquiring new DMUs.

 

[edwin_m]

It could equally well be operated as an electric between Glasgow and Newcastle, York or even Leeds. However due to limitations on ECML capacity the XC from the south would then have to be terminated at the same place.

 

[QueensCurve]

Furthermore, another factor may be that it is very difficult or not possible at all to travel from Carlisle to north of the central belt on a direct service. The Caledonian Main Line runs from Citadel station to Greenhill Junction/ northbound to Inverness, yet today, it seems crazy that there are no direct [sic] services that run the complete length of the CML.

The main markets are Glasgow and Edinburgh whereas the Caledonian route via Mossend serves neither.

The route via Mossend was formerly used by The Clansman from Euston to Inverness which I fondly remember.

WCML services to Edinburgh are no longer extended beyond Edinburgh or Soouth West of Birmingham.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The main markets are Glasgow and Edinburgh whereas the Caledonian route via Mossend serves neither.

The route via Mossend was formerly used by The Clansman from Euston to Inverness which I fondly remember.
WCML services to Edinburgh are no longer extended beyond Edinburgh or Soouth West of Birmingham.

The Inverness sleeper ran this way for donkeys years, plus WCML day trains to Perth/Aberdeen and motorail services.
Virgin wanted to run to Stirling in the 2012 franchise bid which failed (starting after EGIP electrification).
I imagine that option will come back in the ICWC bids next year.
They didn't say what the routing would be, presumably direct.
Another option would be to reverse trains at Glasgow Central and run via Rutherglen and Coatbridge now that route is wired.

The Mossend route is occasionally used to reach Edinburgh from the WCML during engineering works, running via Greenhill Lower, Falkirk Grahamston and the E&G.