Castlefield corridor stupidity

[ElectroSoldier]

Castlefield corridor doesnt seem to have any real problems if you take away all the problems like lack of crew, and train failures.

 

[BucksBones]

Castlefield corridor doesnt seem to have any real problems if you take away all the problems

Couldn't agree more!

 

[soccermad]

Where exactly is the castlefield corridor please ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Where exactly is the castlefield corridor please ?

The route between Castlefield Junction just to the west of Deansgate and the junction between the lines through platforms 13 and 14 and the rest of the station's throat at Manchester Piccadilly (I forget its name).

 

[Llama]

Manchester Piccadilly East Junction to give it it's proper title.

 

[palmersears]

I was caught up in this on the Lime Street-Crewe stopper, which was two services behind the 331s that were on 1Y62, Blackpool-Manchester Airport. They failed at Piccadilly at 1615ish, and it took 40 minutes to move them out of the way, eventually limping across Piccadilly throat to the goods loop by Longsight depot (blocking Piccadilly completely for 5 minute, which didn't help).

As you'd expect, trains stacked up behind it, including 4L96, which was initially stopped in the platforms at Deansgate despite having arrived on time from Trafford Park. This blocked Castlefield junction in both directions, but was eventually remedied by moving it up into platform 3 at Oxford Road so services could at least resume running west. The TPE service had to be worked around as well, which only exacerbated things.

I suppose technically some services were delayed by the freight train, but only because it had itself been delayed because of issues on both Northern and TPEs behalf. More convenient to blame the nasty freight train though, isn't it?

 

[Bald Rick]

Don't do it in central Manchester anywhere. They don't do it on the Thameslink core, do they?

(Northern's diagrammers really do need to spend a day with Thameslink's, I reckon...)

TL do still relieve at Blackfriars, occasionally, although the practice was intended to be removed.

(Indeed it may have stopped at this latest timetable change, I’m not sure).

However I very much agree that Northern could learn a lot from Thameslink and other London TOCs about how to operate a service on an intensively used corridor. Not just diagramming, but their critical elements, particular dwell and dispatch management.

 

[Whisky Papa]

Don't do it in central Manchester anywhere. They don't do it on the Thameslink core, do they?

(Northern's diagrammers really do need to spend a day with Thameslink's, I reckon...)

So presumably close Victoria and Piccadilly crew depots then? Or perhaps reduce Piccadilly to just cover the routes that terminatate in the main platforms (Hadfiled, Marple etc)? To be replaced by staff based where, I wonder, and relieving where? Using units based where?

 

[Bletchleyite]

So presumably close Victoria and Piccadilly crew depots then? Or perhaps reduce Piccadilly to just cover the routes that terminatate in the main platforms (Hadfiled, Marple etc)? To be replaced by staff based where, I wonder, and relieving where? Using units based where?

I have no idea, but as depots open and close over time this is hardly insurmountable, and there would be the option of bussing or taxi-ing staff around to alternative relief points, or training them over longer routes so they can work further, subject to required PNB times.

Where the units are based is irrelevant because they don't get swapped mid-journey, it's crews.

Nowhere is particularly great hence my strong view for simplification, but if for instance you swapped out crews at Stockport instead of Picc on routes going that way you aren't going to cause as much of a blockage if there is a delay. Or at Stalybridge on TPEs, maybe - you'd have to add a stop, but then do that.

Another option as I said is just to build in more slack - if a member of crew had a decent layover between trains so they're always stood there ready, it'd be quicker. If they stuck to the same route or small set of routes, there would be less knock-on.

Talking about alternative relief points, while reliefs occur at Bletchley on trains that stop, they occur elsewhere e.g. MKC where the train doesn't stop at Bletchley.

 

[Whisky Papa]

I have no idea, but as depots open and close over time this is hardly insurmountable, and there would be the option of bussing or taxi-ing staff around to alternative relief points, or training them over longer routes so they can work further, subject to required PNB times.

Where the units are based is irrelevant because they don't get swapped mid-journey, it's crews.

Nowhere is particularly great hence my strong view for simplification, but if for instance you swapped out crews at Stockport instead of Picc on routes going that way you aren't going to cause as much of a blockage if there is a delay. Or at Stalybridge on TPEs, maybe - you'd have to add a stop, but then do that.

Another option as I said is just to build in more slack - if a member of crew had a decent layover between trains so they're always stood there ready, it'd be quicker. If they stuck to the same route or small set of routes, there would be less knock-on.

Talking about alternative relief points, while reliefs occur at Bletchley on trains that stop, they occur elsewhere e.g. MKC where the train doesn't stop at Bletchley.

I only mention units because a large number of them are based relatively close to the centre of Manchester - if there were no drivers based centrally then they would potentially have to be taxied a long way to eg Newton Heath at the start and end of service. Unreliable and expensive, I would suggest.

I do agree that there seem to be more releifs than neccessary at Oxford Rd, although of course a PNB will still be needed somewhere. I believe the original Birmingham - Stansted Airport service suffered badly for having the PNB in the layover at the airport, leading to cancellations if running late, and we certainly don't want to recreate that situation. One might also reasonably ask why Victoria crews are being taxied over to work trains that don't touch Victoria? The allocation of work always baffled me, but it will be a long-term project to sort it out I would think.

The problem with relieving at anywhere other than an outer (or even inner) terminus is that a crew failure still has the potential to block the line. I did think about Stockport or Bolton, but they really don't have much scope. True, a five minute delay may not cause the carnage it would at Oxford Rd, but a full cancellation blocking a platform would still soon cause problems.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The problem with relieving at anywhere other than an outer (or even inner) terminus is that a crew failure still has the potential to block the line. I did think about Stockport or Bolton, but they really don't have much scope. True, a five minute delay may not cause the carnage it would at Oxford Rd, but a full cancellation blocking a platform would still soon cause problems.

Stockport has multiple platforms in each direction so the knock-on would be reduced. Bolton doesn't in the same way, but it is still a knock-on to fewer routes.

 

[Fleetwood Boy]

Stockport has multiple platforms in each direction so the knock-on would be reduced. Bolton doesn't in the same way, but it is still a knock-on to fewer routes.

Actually Bolton has reasonable flexibility with the reopened platform 5 - platforms 1, 3 and 4 are bidirectional I think? Even just significantly reducing the number of crew changeovers at Victoria, Oxford Road and Piccadilly 13/14 would surely be a step in the right direction? So Stockport and Bolton look like good shouts to me. A lot of these problems sound like inexperienced schedulers working with inaccurately programmed computerised scheduling packages - computer says YES, so they just go with it.

 

[markymark2000]

Staff walking between stations across Manchester is fairly common, I often do it because I am sick of getting in filthy, late taxis whose drivers take risks, take ridiculous routes because many of them are not local (have a look how many City of Wolverhampton Council licenced minicabs there are around Manchester) and where there is nowhere near enough time alloted on traincrew diagrams for some journeys, eg Victoria to Oxford Rd.

Ask any member of station staff at Oxford Rd what the top reasons for relief crew being late to trains are, taxis will probably be the first thing they say.

For those trains which stop at Deansgate and do not start/terminate at Oxford Road, can you not arrange for some guards to change over at Deansgate. This then means staff could use the Metrolink, local buses and taxis. While not ideal, if train crew are late, it would have huge effects on the corridor but that said, there is a lot more chance of train crew being on time.

 

[Bletchleyite]

For those trains which stop at Deansgate and do not start/terminate at Oxford Road, can you not arrange for some guards to change over at Deansgate. This then means staff could use the Metrolink, local buses and taxis. While not ideal, if train crew are late, it would have huge effects on the corridor but that said, there is a lot more chance of train crew being on time.

Problem with Deansgate is that it only has two platforms so a delayed train blocks the corridor entirely in that direction.

Why shouldn't staff walk, at least during the day? What are they going to do, shrink if it rains?

 

[geoffk]

Come on Rich, we all know that those containers are empty and are run just to inconvenience the great British public

If there was an alternative path for the freights which run thro Oxford Road it would solve some of the congestion problems. Any alternative would cost a lot of money, e.g. western exit Trafford Park to CLC line, long loops on CLC itself and a curve in the Hough Green/Ditton area to link with Lpool - Crewe line OR swing bridge over/tunnel under the MSC to join the Weaste branch, thence Chat Moss line. Could NR ban freights at peak times?

 

[Llama]

There is no travel arrangement with Metrolink or local buses (which would be too unreliable anyway) and Network Rail wouldn't permit crew changes at Deansgate in the same way the don't permit it at Piccadilly - any crew displaced and unable to relieve their inbound train at the right time would have huge knock-on effects. At Oxford Rd there is some built-in contingency by way of multiple platforms.

The issue with being booked to walk (and there are still agreed official walking routes) rather than choosing to walk is safety - I wouldn't walk across town in uniform between say 8pm and 2am as readily as I would in the mornings. Also, guards with their takings - cash regs? Guards have the same issues as drivers re crew relief.

 

[markymark2000]

Problem with Deansgate is that it only has two platforms so a delayed train blocks the corridor entirely in that direction.

Why shouldn't staff walk, at least during the day? What are they going to do, shrink if it rains?

It has it's pros and cons, it's about weighing them up and coming to a proper conclusion. IT has to be worth investigating more.
Bigger effect on services if a crew member is late but a much lower chance of crew member being late. It's a tough balance.

As for staff walking, it will be a union issue probably. It's the exact same in buses. The unions see it as suitable transport should be provided at the cost of the company for moving employees between locations.

 

[Ploughman]

Many years back I used to have to go to Longsight depot from Man Picc.
A staff minibus was on permanent standby for any staff needing to get there.
Is it possible for all the train companies to get togrther and provide their own independant secure travel across manchester to the different relief points available to all rail staff?

 

[Ianno87]

So presumably close Victoria and Piccadilly crew depots then? Or perhaps reduce Piccadilly to just cover the routes that terminatate in the main platforms (Hadfiled, Marple etc)? To be replaced by staff based where, I wonder, and relieving where? Using units based where?

A strategy where terminating trains at Manchester Airport (with a sensibly planned timetable - not trains waiting for drivers sat on top of trains without drivers) and changing drivers there, might make sense...

Drivers then drive end to end, like Thameslink.

 

[ZL exile]

All of these ideas, will in general either add to the turn length or reduce the amount of time available to drive trains, unless you move the train crew depots to those locations. Can’t see this being popular with management in terms of depot establishment or the train crew, as the latter may then have issues with travel arrangements and journey times to their depots.

 

[Llama]

Many years back I used to have to go to Longsight depot from Man Picc.
A staff minibus was on permanent standby for any staff needing to get there.
Is it possible for all the train companies to get togrther and provide their own independant secure travel across manchester to the different relief points available to all rail staff?

We used to have exactly that up until a good few years ago. The 'staff car' even had a dedicated mobile phone so we could ring or text to give prior notice if we didn't need it, or to ask it to wait for two minutes etc. It was abolished by the current management.

 

[Bletchleyite]

All of these ideas, will in general either add to the turn length or reduce the amount of time available to drive trains, unless you move the train crew depots to those locations. Can’t see this being popular with management in terms of depot establishment or the train crew, as the latter may then have issues with travel arrangements and journey times to their depots.

"We can't possibly change anything to solve our problems, can we"?

 

[Grumpy Git]

We used to have exactly that up until a good few years ago. The 'staff car' even had a dedicated mobile phone so we could ring or text to give prior notice if we didn't need it, or to ask it to wait for two minutes etc. It was abolished by the current management.

Somebody probably got a bonus for that "money saving" decision?

 

[Merle Haggard]

Something for those 'delayed' by an 100 slu box train through Castlefield to think about.
I spent most of my railway career with freight.
Latterly, most of 'our' trains were Class 4. They generally went origin - destination without booked stops.
They were routed slow line on the West Coast.
On the slow line there were also slow passenger trains that stopped every few miles (e.g. Euston - Bletchley or Traff. Pk. - Picc.). Theses were Class 2.
In the railway operating brain, class 2 is much more important than class 4.
Late running Class 2s would be given priority over R/T Cl 4s. Class 4s were booked to follow all stations trains.
As a result, 75MPH Class 4s averaged about 30MPH overall.
Our customers were prepared to pay a premium price for fast reliable transits as part of their production line or distribution network - the 'just in time' principle - but their patience was worn threadbare by the levels of delay.
I know what revenue freight trains earned and I can say with some certainty that that income is likely to be considerably larger than any Northern Rail train, even if all the passengers on it have actually paid...
Of course, in BR days the surplus generated by the freight business helped to subsidise the loss making passenger ones, but this does not now apply.

 

[ZL exile]

Changes have consequences too, they may be right but they may cost the business and or the staff, how would most people react in their job was moved and their travel time increased by an say 40 mins each way each day? would you be happy with that? Or if you are running a business and your costs increase by 10% but your contract terms don’t change so no increase, leading to a net loss to you business?
The current system is a mess, because of the insistence of a ridiculous amount of trains from every garden shed to places like Manchester Airport. This needs to change, as does the insistence on ever increasing air travel for business and leisure. The latter situation could be solved with better / fairer taxation of air travel and pollution.

 

[Sweetjesus]

According to Realtime Trains website, it appears most of freights that go through Manchester Oxford road are headed to either Crewe, Soton or Felixstowe.

Couldn't they travel in the opposite direction to WCML instead of going through the busy corridor?

 

[The Planner]

According to Realtime Trains website, it appears most of freights that go through Manchester Oxford road are headed to either Crewe, Soton or Felixstowe.

Couldn't they travel in the opposite direction to WCML instead of going through the busy corridor?

How? No exit from Trafford Park to allow that.

 

[slipdigby]

How? No exit from Trafford Park to allow that.

Nor indeed any way to access the WCML off the CLC.

*cough* Dallam Chord.....

 

[Bevan Price]

All of these ideas, will in general either add to the turn length or reduce the amount of time available to drive trains, unless you move the train crew depots to those locations. Can’t see this being popular with management in terms of depot establishment or the train crew, as the latter may then have issues with travel arrangements and journey times to their depots.

Would it not be preferable, for example, for Liverpool crews to be able to work all the way to Crewe via Manchester Airport**, Wigan crews to work to the Airport or Wilmslow/ Alderley Edge, and Blackpool crews to go to Hazel Grove, etc.?
** Plus some Manchester crews might work Manchester /Crewe/Liverpool/Crewe/Manchester diagrams, avoiding the need for any crew changes at Oxford Road or Platforms 13/14 at Piccadilly.

 

[john prytherch]

Or reopening the CLC Wigan line from Glazebrook West Junction to a point near where it crossed over the Chat Moss line (near Kenyon Junction), with a connection onto the latter near there.


John Prytherch.