Caught for buying child fares

[dotts]

Hi,

I was stopped today at Birmingham New Street station and was caught with a child ticket which I had purchased (stupidly) for my journey. This is something I have done for roughly three months as a way to save money and I have purchased around 50 child tickets in that time.

My usual journey is from Duddeston to Birmingham new street however on this day in particular I was coming from Tamworth and being in a rush had purchased my normal ticket from duddeston. They then checked my ticket history and discovered the other child tickets.

When confronted I was open and honest in the interview and I was told to wait a few weeks to hear back.

I was expecting the £100 fine for having an invalid ticket however upon researching I have found out that the potential consequences are much worse than I had thought.

I really want to avoid going to court as a criminal conviction would have huge implications for my career. I understand that this a case by case basis but given how many instances there are I am very worried that this will be escalated to court.

I have since purchased the relevant railcard and I will be purchasing the correct tickets going forward. I’ve seen some very knowledgeable people on this forum and was hoping to get an opinion on what the likely outcome will be. Is this likely to go to court given the amount of instances?

Thanks in advance.

 

[AlterEgo]

Let’s clear this one up right at the start. Do you or do you not start your journeys at Duddeston, the closest possible station to Birmingham New Street on that line? If so, can you evidence that to the train company?

It’ll be clear to them you’ve been short faring and buying the cheapest possible ticket to open the barriers, and they will see your side of the story as attempting to mitigate the amount you’ll need to pay back to them.

 

[dotts]

Yes, although this will be difficult to evidence due to the lack of barriers at duddeston

 

[AlterEgo]

Yes, although this will be difficult to evidence due to the lack of barriers at duddeston

Do you have any evidence that you start your journeys there? When asked for your details, is your home address in Duddeston (this would be good evidence!), or is it nearer or in Tamworth?

 

[WesternLancer]

Do you have any evidence that you start your journeys there? When asked for your details, is your home address in Duddeston (this would be good evidence!), or is it nearer or in Tamworth?

don't forget some people will get a lift to the nearest station to their destination, get dropped off, then get the train the rest of the way for a short journey

The person giving the lift will no doubt always be happy to turn up in the Magistrates court to say in court that they give these lifts to help support the story if the railway company don't believe them...

 

[geoffkendall10]

Not sure if this reply above is sarcasm or not but I really doubt that the statements about a short fairing are true

 

[WesternLancer]

Not sure if this reply above is sarcasm or not but I really doubt that the statements about a short fairing are true

I don't want to take it off topic because clearly we are here to help the OP resolve this situation in the least worst way possible.

However, we do find that people who have been deliberately evading quite often do all or several of these things:

- discount tickets with railcards that give the biggest discount even when they do not have / have no eligibility to use that Railcard (a member of staff on here the other week pointed out that in their time checking tickets they have only once actually seen someone with a Job Centre Railcard that they legitimately held despite regularly finding people with tickets discounted with that Railcard ie evaders)
and / or
- use child tickets when they are over 16
and
- short fare with a ticket from closest to their destination bought in order to open the barriers at the destination

So it's reasonable to assume that the railway will look for patterns of these sorts of things when they start to investigate deliberate evasion suspects in the back office

West Mids trains is one of the top examples of a train company using IT trawls to find things like that and accuse people of doing them. You can see many threads with examples of it. The best defense of that is to have some proof for why you might regularly be travelling to or from the stations concerned. Potentially that's going to be a help getting an out of court settlement which in this case is what the OP will be seeking to achieve.

 

[GadgetMan]

.

I have since purchased the relevant railcard and I will be purchasing the correct tickets going forward.

Going forward, will your 'correct' tickets continue to be from Duddeston or will they now be from Tamworth?

As WMT will be able to see what you've been buying since. So if you now suddenly start coming from Tamworth everyday, it'll make it obvious you've been short faring.

 

[RPI]

It would also be quite easy for WMT to use CCTV for recent incidents too.

 

[Tevion539]

(a member of staff on here the other week pointed out that in their time checking tickets they have only once actually seen someone with a Job Centre Railcard that they legitimately held despite regularly finding people with tickets discounted with that Railcard ie evaders)
and / or
- use child tickets when they are over 16
and
- short fare with a ticket from closest to their destination bought in order to open the barriers at the destination

Genuinely myself have only ever seen a valid JCP railcard once in nearly three years. The lengths that people got to sometimes is rather telling. I’ve found typically if they’re lying about one thing, they’re lying about something else too.

 

[Lewisham2221]

You've already admitted to fraudulently buying a child ticket to "save money" on the basically the cheapest possible train fare into Birmingham, you're going to have a hard time convincing anyone that you genuinely normally travel from Duddeston to New Street but just out of pure coincidence got caught on the one time that you were travelling from Tamworth instead and had "accidentally" still purchased a Duddeston to Birmingham New Street ticket.

 

[John R]

Not sure if this reply above is sarcasm or not but I really doubt that the statements about a short fairing are true

It was (by someone who is a very experienced and helpful expert on here) pre-empting the story we hear so often when someone has been short faring.

I’m sure when you’ve been on here a bit longer you’ll get the drift of some of the typical problems we get asked to deal with.

 

[WesternLancer]

Genuinely myself have only ever seen a valid JCP railcard once in nearly three years. The lengths that people got to sometimes is rather telling. I’ve found typically if they’re lying about one thing, they’re lying about something else too.

I suspect those are wise insights.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Thursday at 23:07 ==

Hi,

I was stopped today at Birmingham New Street station and was caught with a child ticket which I had purchased (stupidly) for my journey. This is something I have done for roughly three months as a way to save money and I have purchased around 50 child tickets in that time.

My usual journey is from Duddeston to Birmingham new street however on this day in particular I was coming from Tamworth and being in a rush had purchased my normal ticket from duddeston. They then checked my ticket history and discovered the other child tickets.

When confronted I was open and honest in the interview and I was told to wait a few weeks to hear back.

I was expecting the £100 fine for having an invalid ticket however upon researching I have found out that the potential consequences are much worse than I had thought.

I really want to avoid going to court as a criminal conviction would have huge implications for my career. I understand that this a case by case basis but given how many instances there are I am very worried that this will be escalated to court.

I have since purchased the relevant railcard and I will be purchasing the correct tickets going forward. I’ve seen some very knowledgeable people on this forum and was hoping to get an opinion on what the likely outcome will be. Is this likely to go to court given the amount of instances?

Thanks in advance.

It shouldn’t be difficult to keep this out of court as WMT are usually happy to settle cases with people who co operate with them.

You’ll get the advice you need here on what to do to help achieve that.

Head here when they contact you to get help on how best to respond.

 

[RPI]

I think as others have said, the OP probably needs to be entirely honest with us if they want useful advice, the logistics of what they're saying don't make any logical sense, Duddeston in most cases wouldn't be the most convenient station to drop someone off, but it is, conveniently, a prime short fare station as well. What the OP is stating may be true, but it's certainly one of the least likely scenarios.

 

[Snow1964]

The Op needs to truthful, if they are hoping for least worst consequences.

Of course if they have been buying tickets for cash from a ticket office or TVM will be no history of earlier journeys. However if they have been using an app or website and same email or bank card, then they need to realise many months of transactions will be visible.

If there are lots of previous transactions then these will all be checked, and are likely to slow the railway company writing to Op. In meantime I suggest the Op makes provision (saves up, or be ready to borrow funds) to ensure they can pay the full adult fares for any underpaid journey plus couple of hundred pounds for admin/investigation. If they choose to use a solicitor should probably allow another £750 (and for some avoiding any form of court record is worth paying for if it protects their career, which requires perfectly clean record).

But until they get letter and advise what it says, can only give vague advice, as don't know what railways claim we be.

 

[REO Nate]

Hi,

I was stopped today at Birmingham New Street station and was caught with a child ticket which I had purchased (stupidly) for my journey. This is something I have done for roughly three months as a way to save money and I have purchased around 50 child tickets in that time.

My usual journey is from Duddeston to Birmingham new street however on this day in particular I was coming from Tamworth and being in a rush had purchased my normal ticket from duddeston. They then checked my ticket history and discovered the other child tickets.

When confronted I was open and honest in the interview and I was told to wait a few weeks to hear back.

I was expecting the £100 fine for having an invalid ticket however upon researching I have found out that the potential consequences are much worse than I had thought.

I really want to avoid going to court as a criminal conviction would have huge implications for my career. I understand that this a case by case basis but given how many instances there are I am very worried that this will be escalated to court.

I have since purchased the relevant railcard and I will be purchasing the correct tickets going forward. I’ve seen some very knowledgeable people on this forum and was hoping to get an opinion on what the likely outcome will be. Is this likely to go to court given the amount of instances?

Thanks in advance.

I would be speaking to a solicitor as soon as possible and writing to the company offering to settle any outstanding monies immediately.

 

[skyhigh]

I would be speaking to a solicitor as soon as possible and writing to the company offering to settle any outstanding monies immediately.

No.

Do not write to the company before they write to you.

There is no need for a solicitor yet.

 

[UpsetPigeon]

I would be speaking to a solicitor as soon as possible and writing to the company offering to settle any outstanding monies immediately.

On what basis do you say consult a solicitor before receiving a letter from the train operator? I've not seen that advice on here before

 

[RPI]

I would be speaking to a solicitor as soon as possible and writing to the company offering to settle any outstanding monies immediately.

I'd advise against the former at this point and advise against the latter until you've been contacted.

 

[AlterEgo]

I would be speaking to a solicitor as soon as possible and writing to the company offering to settle any outstanding monies immediately.

No, definitely don’t do this. No need for a solicitor, never talk to the company unless or until they contact you.

 

[Hadders]

I would be speaking to a solicitor as soon as possible and writing to the company offering to settle any outstanding monies immediately.

I disagree with this advice.

Do nothing until the train company contacts you, this is because you don't know what they are going to ask you and there is a risk that you could incriminate yourself when you don't need to.

There's no need to involve a solicitor at this stage. I've seen loads of similar cases involving WMT over the years in this section of the forum and they almost always ofer an out of court settlement, as long as you co-operate with them.

 

[WesternLancer]

I think as others have said, the OP probably needs to be entirely honest with us if they want useful advice, the logistics of what they're saying don't make any logical sense, Duddeston in most cases wouldn't be the most convenient station to drop someone off, but it is, conveniently, a prime short fare station as well. What the OP is stating may be true, but it's certainly one of the least likely scenarios.

Yes, agree with this - and it won't make the prospects of prosecution significantly greater in my view - it will just be that more money is owed for the fares evaded - which might be what you should expect to happen when you (eventually) get caught and found out.

 

[REO Nate]

It's what I said I would do... because it is, based off significant law enforcement experience.

The OP has already been interviewed (which I would never do without a solicitor present) and has said they were entirely honest, which means self incrimination may have already happened. If you intend to seek legal advice it should always be sought at the earliest possible stage, whether it is then necessary later or not.

If WMT offer an out of court settlement, then great, grab it with both hands; however, I'd still run it past a solicitor to make sure.

You are welcome to disagree, but as i said, its what I said I would do and it is.

 

[guilbert]

I guess it depends on the OP's priorities. If avoiding a conviction is the absolute priority then getting professional advice from a solicitor with relevant experience might be a good idea. It's going to be quite expensive though and I don't think there's much evidence a solicitor would negotiate a lower settlement amount than they would themselves. It may make the process less stressful though. I would wait and see what the TOC say.

 

[AlterEgo]

It's what I said I would do... because it is, based off significant law enforcement experience.

The OP has already been interviewed (which I would never do without a solicitor present) and has said they were entirely honest, which means self incrimination may have already happened. If you intend to seek legal advice it should always be sought at the earliest possible stage, whether it is then necessary later or not.

If WMT offer an out of court settlement, then great, grab it with both hands; however, I'd still run it past a solicitor to make sure.

You are welcome to disagree, but as i said, its what I said I would do and it is.

WMT settle every time. No need for all of this, which comes with significant additional expense. Just wait to be contacted and go from there.

 

[REO Nate]

I really want to avoid going to court as a criminal conviction would have huge implications for my career. I understand that this a case by case basis but given how many instances there are I am very worried that this will be escalated to court

And I think thats the most relevant point of the discussion... as the OP has mentioned above.

Any good solicitor will tell you to seek advice at an early stage. It may well be expensive, but given the content of the OP's original post, the priority is abundantly clear.

I'm certainly not suggesting a lower amount would be negotiated, but avoiding any proceedings being brought in the first place and negotiating early is sensible in the circumstances. A solicitor with proper legal training is the best and most qualified person to speak to the company in regard to this situation.

People may well disagree (as above), but when your priority is so clearly laid out, its worth the additional expense.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Friday at 13:48 ==

WMT settle every time.. They may well do, until they decide not to any more. Past policy is no guarantee of future outcomes.

If it was me in the OP's position I'd protect myself as much as possible, which was the point of my original post.

 

[John R]

But what they actually asked was “Is this likely to go to court”, and sought the advice of “the very knowledgeable people on this forum”.

And they have been given an answer by those same people, who have seen and advised on hundreds of cases just like this one.

 

[Hadders]

And I think thats the most relevant point of the discussion... as the OP has mentioned above.

Any good solicitor will tell you to seek advice at an early stage. It may well be expensive, but given the content of the OP's original post, the priority is abundantly clear.

I'm certainly not suggesting a lower amount would be negotiated, but avoiding any proceedings being brought in the first place and negotiating early is sensible in the circumstances. A solicitor with proper legal training is the best and most qualified person to speak to the company in regard to this situation.

People may well disagree (as above), but when your priority is so clearly laid out, its worth the additional expense.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Friday at 13:48 ==

WMT settle every time.. They may well do, until they decide not to any more. Past policy is no guarantee of future outcomes.

If it was me in the OP's position I'd protect myself as much as possible, which was the point of my original post.

That's ok if you've got the c.£800 to pay a solicitor in addition to the settlement fee that you'll have to pay.

Many of the people seeking our advice do not have that sort of money.

A look through this section of the forum, at threads involving WMT (and to be fair any train company other than TfL), and you'll quickly come to the conclusion that out of court settlements are offered to people who co-operate with them.

 

[REO Nate]

But what they actually asked was “Is this likely to go to court”, and sought the advice of “the very knowledgeable people on this forum”.

And they have been given an answer by those same people, who have seen and advised on hundreds of cases just like this one.

And its absolutely fair enough for knowlegable people to give their anecdotal advice, but considering the risk to the OP's future career aspirations as detailed in their post, there is other advice which can also be considered and is of equal relevance.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Friday at 15:11 ==

That's ok if you've got the c.£800 to pay a solicitor in addition to the settlement fee that you'll have to pay.

Many of the people seeking our advice do not have that sort of money.

A look through this section of the forum, at threads involving WMT (and to be fair any train company other than TfL), and you'll quickly come to the conclusion that out of court settlements are offered to people who co-operate with them.

Which they may well have; we don't know the OP's financial position. Ultimately, if it is absolutely imperative to have the best protection, that may be money well spent.

Some people who fare evade (like the infamous Stonegate, London City Trader fare evader) have plenty of money but choose to evade anyway.

It may well be the case that WMT will settle and I genuinely hope they do. The vast majority of significant fare evaders I dealt with were offered settlements and chose to settle. HOWEVER, if I was in the OP's position, I'd be taking no chances and would protect myself regardless.

Advice here is advice and it's down to the OP what they decide to do.

This topic is going way off track now and is distracting from the OP's original questions.

 

[RPI]

And I think thats the most relevant point of the discussion... as the OP has mentioned above.

Any good solicitor will tell you to seek advice at an early stage. It may well be expensive, but given the content of the OP's original post, the priority is abundantly clear.

I'm certainly not suggesting a lower amount would be negotiated, but avoiding any proceedings being brought in the first place and negotiating early is sensible in the circumstances. A solicitor with proper legal training is the best and most qualified person to speak to the company in regard to this situation.

People may well disagree (as above), but when your priority is so clearly laid out, its worth the additional expense.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Friday at 13:48 ==

WMT settle every time.. They may well do, until they decide not to any more. Past policy is no guarantee of future outcomes.

If it was me in the OP's position I'd protect myself as much as possible, which was the point of my original post.

But the financial cost of a solicitor could be anything up to £1k.