Caught travelling from wrong station, will I be fined?

[Melt_02]

Hi everyone,

I (21f) am in need of some advice. I have done something stupid and need help.

3 days a week I work in office at Harrogate and get the train from Horsforth to Harrogate, I have done this since July 2020. However I buy my advance single ticket from Leeds with a valid 16-25 physical railcard. For those who don’t know, Horsforth is a stop after Leeds to Harrogate so technically if I had not bought an advance single and had bought a regular ticket I would be correct in my thinking.

Unfortunately, in January 2024 the price for my ticket from Horsforth went from £5 to £10 and being a 21 year old in her first job I don’t have much money. A ticket from Leeds is £3 although it is a longer journey.


A colleague told me that I would be fine to buy my ticket from Leeds and get on from Horsforth as it does not have any barriers and is after Leeds. He said he does it a lot and is fine with the staff. I stupidly believed them and also noticed a lot of people on the same train as me do the same thing. For the last 4 months I’ve been buying my ticket from Leeds and getting on at the wrong station and I haven’t had a problem, my ticket is also checked everyday.

Today an inspector I had not seen before was checking tickets and handing out fines for this to multiple people. I explained to her my mistake and she nicely did not fine me however she took my details. A lot of people had done the same thing, she gave them a £50 fine but not me.

Now I am panicking, I have read online that they can check your previous trips and can charge you a hefty fine for this. I have counted and I have done this 33 times since I started in January 2024. Before this I bought the correct ticket for 6 months.

I know it can take 4-6 weeks for the letter to arrive but I am struggling with money at the moment and the thought of waiting that long to find out my fine is making my very anxious. Should I ring Trainline?

I know I am in the wrong, how much of a fine do you think I will receive? I buy my tickets through Trainline and I have been fined once before around 3 years ago for not having a ticket as I lost it. The inspector said I would probably just be fined the price of the ticket (£10) but I am assuming they will realise I have done this before, and I don’t think they will appreciate my excuse.


The trip is around 5 stops and lasts 25 mins. How much do you think I will be fined? She took my details and railcard number, but my railcard is not linked to the app.

Thank you in advance.

Also to add, this is for a single journey not a return, I get the bus back.

EDIT: I have done this July 2023 not 2020.

 

[Ducky88]

Was this at the barriers or on the train?

If it was on the train then i think you should be fine.

if it was at the barriers then i think its something a little different

 

[AlterEgo]

Hi everyone,

I (21f) am in need of some advice. I have done something stupid and need help.

3 days a week I work in office at Harrogate and get the train from Horsforth to Harrogate, I have done this since July 2020. However I buy my advance single ticket from Leeds with a valid 16-25 physical railcard. For those who don’t know, Horsforth is a stop after Leeds to Harrogate so technically if I had not bought an advance single and had bought a regular ticket I would be correct in my thinking.

Unfortunately, in January 2024 the price for my ticket from Horsforth went from £5 to £10 and being a 21 year old in her first job I don’t have much money. A ticket from Leeds is £3 although it is a longer journey.


A colleague told me that I would be fine to buy my ticket from Leeds and get on from Horsforth as it does not have any barriers and is after Leeds. He said he does it a lot and is fine with the staff. I stupidly believed them and also noticed a lot of people on the same train as me do the same thing. For the last 4 months I’ve been buying my ticket from Leeds and getting on at the wrong station and I haven’t had a problem, my ticket is also checked everyday.

Today an inspector I had not seen before was checking tickets and handing out fines for this to multiple people. I explained to her my mistake and she nicely did not fine me however she took my details. A lot of people had done the same thing, she gave them a £50 fine but not me.

Now I am panicking, I have read online that they can check your previous trips and can charge you a hefty fine for this. I have counted and I have done this 33 times since I started in January 2024. Before this I bought the correct ticket for 6 months.

I know it can take 4-6 weeks for the letter to arrive but I am struggling with money at the moment and the thought of waiting that long to find out my fine is making my very anxious. Should I ring Trainline?

I know I am in the wrong, how much of a fine do you think I will receive? I buy my tickets through Trainline and I have been fined once before around 3 years ago for not having a ticket as I lost it. The inspector said I would probably just be fined the price of the ticket (£10) but I am assuming they will realise I have done this before, and I don’t think they will appreciate my excuse.


The trip is around 5 stops and lasts 25 mins. How much do you think I will be fined? She took my details and railcard number, but my railcard is not linked to the app.

It's likely Northern will write to you asking for your side of the story, they may well also audit your Trainline account and see all the short faring you've been doing. You can expect to pay £100-200 admin fee plus any and all fares they detect you have avoided. Horsforth to Harrogate is £9.90 Anytime Day Return so if they detect all the instances tgat will be about £320 on top of their administration fees.

 

[Melt_02]

Was this at the barriers or on the train?

If it was on the train then i think you should be fine.

if it was at the barriers then i think its something a little different

Hi,

This was on the train when I spoke to the Inspector. At Leeds station you must go through barriers to access the trains. This is how they would know I was actually boarding at Horsforth.

It's likely Northern will write to you asking for your side of the story, they may well also audit your Trainline account and see all the short faring you've been doing. You can expect to pay £100-200 admin fee plus any and all fares they detect you have avoided. Horsforth to Harrogate is £9.90 Anytime Day Return so if they detect all the instances tgat will be about £320 on top of their administration fees.

So around £500? Is there anything I can do, it was a genuine mistake and that is so much.

 

[CompactDstrxion]

It's likely Northern will write to you asking for your side of the story, they may well also audit your Trainline account and see all the short faring you've been doing. You can expect to pay £100-200 admin fee plus any and all fares they detect you have avoided. Horsforth to Harrogate is £9.90 Anytime Day Return so if they detect all the instances tgat will be about £320 on top of their administration fees.

This isn't 'short faring', Horsforth is between Leeds and Harrogate. It's using an Advance fare from Leeds on the correct train but travelling from Horsforth against the T&Cs.
My suggestion to Melt_02 would be to simply not do anything until Northern write to you.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's likely Northern will write to you asking for your side of the story, they may well also audit your Trainline account and see all the short faring you've been doing. You can expect to pay £100-200 admin fee plus any and all fares they detect you have avoided. Horsforth to Harrogate is £9.90 Anytime Day Return so if they detect all the instances tgat will be about £320 on top of their administration fees.

It's not short faring, it's break of journey (starting short) on an Advance where the intent was to avoid paying a higher fare. Theoretically the amount due would be the difference between the Advance and the Anytime for each occurrence according to the NRCoT, though in practice it's likely to mean a £100ish settlement plus the full Anytime for each journey.

 

[Ducky88]

Hi,

This was on the train when I spoke to the Inspector. At Leeds station you must go through barriers to access the trains. This is how they would know I was actually boarding at Horsforth.


So around £500? Is there anything I can do, it was a genuine mistake and that is so much.

Well being on the train, the Conductor i am guessing is who caught you. so i wouldnt worry too much till you get a letter.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Hi,

This was on the train when I spoke to the Inspector. At Leeds station you must go through barriers to access the trains. This is how they would know I was actually boarding at Horsforth.


So around £500? Is there anything I can do, it was a genuine mistake and that is so much.

I doubt you could persuade the railways it was "a mistake", since you knew you had a ticket from the wrong station...

I'm also a bit confused - were the tickets you bought "Advance" ones - is that why they were cheaper? If so, it's hard to make a "mistake" when Advances always say they're only valid for the specific train and journey concerned.

If you're offered a deal, ie making a payment to the rail company so as to make the problem go away, you'd be advised to find the money somehow and take up the offer. (NB any payment to the railway isn't "a fine" in the legal sense, and there's no criminal record involved.) But if you don't pay, then they would be within their rights to take you to court - and in that case the actual court fine (and other costs, including compensation ordered to be paid to the railways) could be a much larger amount (and with a criminal record attached). The only "advantage" of the court route is that you'd be likely to be able to pay over a period of time (the railway would want any out-of-court settlement paid quickly, in one go) ... but you'd end up having paid more in the end, and there'd be the criminal conviction.

 

[AlterEgo]

It's not short faring, it's break of journey (starting short) on an Advance where the intent was to avoid paying a higher fare. Theoretically the amount due would be the difference between the Advance and the Anytime for each occurrence according to the NRCoT, though in practice it's likely to mean a £100ish settlement plus the full Anytime for each journey.

Thanks - hadn't noted the geography here! I agree the most they can ask for is the difference in this case.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Should I ring Trainline?

Just to clarify this point, there's no reason to be in touch with Trainline: their only involvement was selling the tickets to you. Your argument is now with Northern, who actually run the trains.

Otherwise, the advice above (wait for Northern to get in touch with you: start saving in case the settlement is at the top end of the ammount they could ask for) is good.

 

[neilmc]

Had to read this a couple of times to work out what was going on - it seems that you can pre-buy an Advance from Leeds to Harrogate but can't do this from Horsforth to Harrogate. Again this is typical and shockingly fraudulent behaviour by a TOC. Unfortunately for the OP they are technically able to do this. One for the Yorkshire Evening Post to highlight?

 

[John R]

Had to read this a couple of times to work out what was going on - it seems that you can pre-buy an Advance from Leeds to Harrogate but can't do this from Horsforth to Harrogate. Again this is typical and shockingly fraudulent behaviour by a TOC. Unfortunately for the OP they are technically able to do this. One for the Yorkshire Evening Post to highlight?

There are so many problems with these short distance Advance fares that can be bought on the day - using them from a different station is by no means the worst in my opinion. I do wonder how these are justified from an overall revenue perspective too - I can't imagine they are generating enough additional revenue given the discounts they offer on the normal price, and the potential entrapment of passengers seems great. Probably one for another thread though...

 

[furlong]

The contract in place states:

16.3 If you start, break or resume your journey at an intermediate station where you are not entitled to do so, you will be liable to pay an excess fare. The price for this will be the difference between the amount paid for the Ticket you hold and the lowest price Ticket available for immediate travel that would have entitled you to start, break or resume your journey at the station concerned.

Provided that you were travelling on the correct train specified on your ticket and not an earlier or later train, you should simply have been charged the difference in fare in line with the terms of the contract. The same for anyone else asked to pay an extra £50 travelling on their correct train - they should be able to appeal to get that money back. If you know any of them, next time you see them suggest that they follow the instructions on the notice telling them how to appeal and quoting the National Rail Conditions of Travel 16.3 above in full.

If the train company has evidence that proves you've done this previously it might ask for the appropriate excess fares to be paid retrospectively. The contract doesn't provide for any additional fees in this case - it certainly could have done, but it doesn't - so if they do ask for any sort of admin fee on top you should ask them to explain the legal basis for it then judge if what they say is right or not.

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

I'm assuming you had an Advance ticket from Leeds to Harrogate but boarded the train at Horsforth. Advance tickets are only valid on the specific booked train so I'm surther assuming you were on the correct train but joined the train at Horsforth rather than at Leeds.

If my assumptions are correct then what you've done is broken the terms and conditions of your ticket. The policy of the rail industry is that Advance tickets are intended to be used only between the origin and destination stations shown on the ticket, there may be occasions where a passenger joins the correct train but at a later station, or alights earlier than the indicated destination. Although this is not strictly in accordance with the rules for Advance tickets, the Rail industry has agreed that in such cases, no additional fare should be charged (unless there is clear evidence of intent to try and avoid a higher fare).

In your case there is evidence of intent to avoid a higher fare. Section 5 of the National Rail Conditions of Travel then tell us:

https://assets.nationalrail.co.uk/e8xgegruud3g/3Y9UXuFziljwsGFCUAwKAA/0aa50a101febffda28c070aae2572570/National_Rail_Conditions_of_Travel.pdf

Where you:
9.5.1 are using a time-restricted Ticket (such as an “off-peak” or “super-off-peak” Ticket) that is correctly dated but invalid for the service on which you are travelling; or
9.5.2 are using a route for which your Ticket is not valid; or
9.5.3 break your journey when you are not permitted to do so; you will be charged the difference between the fare that you have paid and the lowest price Ticket that is valid for the train you are using.

So you are liable to pay an excess fare only. If the train you were on was not the correct one then this does change things so it would be helpful if you could confirm the exact position.

I do not trust Northern to deal with this correctly. They will probably write a threatening letter to you asking for your version of events before deciding how to proceed. If such a letter is sent to you then post a redacted copy of it in this thread and forum members will be happy to assist in how to reply.

Northern have form for this. We had a similar case recently involving a passenger who boarded at Burley Park with an Advance ticket from Leeds. They were incorrectly issued with a Penalty Fare which was successfully appealed. You haven't been issued with a Penalty Fare so there is no formal right of appeal but it doesn't fundamentally change how the situation should be dealt with.

I'm sure @yorkie will be interested to hear of another case of Northern acting incorrectly.

 

[skyhigh]

Was this at the barriers or on the train?

If it was on the train then i think you should be fine.

if it was at the barriers then i think its something a little different

The reports from Northern staff all go to the same place, it makes zero difference where the 'irregularity' was observed.

 

[megabusser]

Also worth noting that if you receive a letter, you don’t have to ‘incriminate’ yourself in your reply by mentioning other occasions that you did the same thing, though you won’t want to lie either of course.

Do you have any idea as to why you were treated differently to the other passengers?

Definitely get further advice here once you receive correspondence from Northern.

 

[Titfield]

There are so many problems with these short distance Advance fares that can be bought on the day - using them from a different station is by no means the worst in my opinion. I do wonder how these are justified from an overall revenue perspective too - I can't imagine they are generating enough additional revenue given the discounts they offer on the normal price, and the potential entrapment of passengers seems great. Probably one for another thread though...

I too doubt it is about generating additional revenue by attracting passengers who would not pay the higher fares. I suspect it is more about being able to point to these fares and say there is a wide range of fares available starting from as little as £xx one way. Yes one for another thread.