Caught with off-peak ticket on peak train and beyond boundary

[Commuter23]

Hi everyone.
This is the situation in short.

• I regularly (one-two times a week) travel from train station A to train station B around 9am.
• I therefore buy an off-peak day return (valid after 9), however occasionally I catch the 8.50 train which is a peak train
• Recently I was travelling on a peak train but holding an off peak day return. Additionally I have missed my stop and was caught by a railway officer before I could get off and go back. I told the officer that I was beyond boundary as I missed my stop and he registered my details. He gave me contacts of Gatwick Express/ Souther, therefore I assume they are dealing with my case.

The questions I have are:

• How luckily this will be treated as an individual case?
• As my ticket was twice invalid (beyond boundary and off peak) will this be further investigated? Is there chance of being treated as regular fare dodger? And is there any evidence based on what I report?
• I admit I did travel consciously on a peak train while holding an off peak return however it wasn’t my intention to short ticket.
• How luckily is a settlement out of court?

Any comment will be very much appreciated!

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Welcome to the forum.

If you look at some of the other threads here, you will see that other posters have been in similar (although not identical) situations. Our advice, put briefly tends to be
- that there's a good chance that the railway will settle out of court, but this can't be guaranteed
- the best way to get an out of court settlement is to keep in touch with the railway and make it clear that you have learnt your lesson and won't pay less than the proper fare again. You can do this by replying to any letters and emails that the railway send. Your letters should:
* Make it clear that you know you were wrong and won't do it again
* Ask if the railway would agree to settling this matter out of court
* Offer to cover the railway fare that you didn't pay, plus the costs that the railway has incurred (if the railway does agree to settle out of court, these costs may be something like £100 to £150)
* be short and courteous.

As to how likely the railway are to agree to settle, that depends on what they know. That will include anything that you tell them, but it will also include anything else that they have found out. So you have told us that you 'occasionally' catch the peak train with an off-peak ticket. If you have been seen doing this, then that would make it more likely that your case would go forward for prosecution as the railway would know that this wasn't a one-off occurrence. The same would apply if the short-ticketing happened more than once. And if your letter contradicted something else that the railway knew to be true (example - they know that you have done this before, but your letter says that it's the first time that it has happened) that will also mean that they are less likely to agree a settlement.

Your best chance is to be honest, and convince the railway that you won't do this again.

 

[Commuter23]

Welcome to the forum.

If you look at some of the other threads here, you will see that other posters have been in similar (although not identical) situations. Our advice, put briefly tends to be
- that there's a good chance that the railway will settle out of court, but this can't be guaranteed
- the best way to get an out of court settlement is to keep in touch with the railway and make it clear that you have learnt your lesson and won't pay less than the proper fare again. You can do this by replying to any letters and emails that the railway send. Your letters should:
* Make it clear that you know you were wrong and won't do it again
* Ask if the railway would agree to settling this matter out of court
* Offer to cover the railway fare that you didn't pay, plus the costs that the railway has incurred (if the railway does agree to settle out of court, these costs may be something like £100 to £150)
* be short and courteous.

As to how likely the railway are to agree to settle, that depends on what they know. That will include anything that you tell them, but it will also include anything else that they have found out. So you have told us that you 'occasionally' catch the peak train with an off-peak ticket. If you have been seen doing this, then that would make it more likely that your case would go forward for prosecution as the railway would know that this wasn't a one-off occurrence. The same would apply if the short-ticketing happened more than once. And if your letter contradicted something else that the railway knew to be true (example - they know that you have done this before, but your letter says that it's the first time that it has happened) that will also mean that they are less likely to agree a settlement.

Your best chance is to be honest, and convince the railway that you won't do this again.

Thanks so much for the useful feedback and reassurance.

My concern is exactly what you have brought up. I will be honest, apologetic and collaborative with the train company, however I wonder whether is better to not mention about my past history and what they could know. Surely they have records of my purchases but I understand ticket machines do not register or keep records of travels. This could either play in my favour (to demonstrate that I did not short fare previously) or not (show that I have travelled on peak trains).

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum. There are two issues here:

1. Travelling at an invalid time
2. Travelling beyond the validity of your ticket (over-riding)

Travelling at an invalid time should be dealt with by means of an excess fare (although the National Rail Conditions of Carriage do contradict themselves), the more serious issue is the over-riding.

You will receive a letter from Govia Thameslink Railway which will probably take a few weeks to arrive saying that they have received a report, are considering prosecuting you and asking for your version of events. It is important that you engage with and reply to this letter. You might want to include the following in your reply:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

Make sure your reply is short and concise, don't give a sob story - they've heard it all before. Most train companies are usually prepared to offer an administrative (commonly known as an out of court settlement) for people who engage with the process and who haven't come to their attention before. There is no guarantee of this, they are within their rights to prosecute.

It would be helpful to know which stations your travelled between and what ticket you held.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Thanks so much for the useful feedback and reassurance.

My concern is exactly what you have brought up. I will be honest, apologetic and collaborative with the train company, however I wonder whether is better to not mention about my past history and what they could know. Surely they have records of my purchases but I understand ticket machines do not register or keep records of travels. This could either play in my favour (to demonstrate that I did not short fare previously) or not (show that I have travelled on peak trains).

I can't advise anything other than total honesty. This is because
a) the principle of the thing: to do otherwise would be wrong, and
b) you cannot know what the railway already have on you: they may have been following your movements, or could resort to reviewing ticket machine records, CCTV and so on. So if you want them to believe that you are being honest, the easiest way to convince them is by being honest.

If you do enough digging on the internet, you will find quite substantial cases of fare evasion which have been settled out of court. So there's always a chance that you can settle. You'll also find cases where the revenue the railway lost was minimal (sometimes someone had even paid the right amount but had the wrong ticket so the railway hadn't lost any money) but there was still a prosecution. So there's always a risk of ending up in court. This means that we can't give you a guarantee that everything will be all right - just our best advice, and from me , that's to make full disclosure.

 

[Titfield]

Without wishing to alarm you: If you have paid by card (debit or credit card) then they will be able to precisely where, when and what ticket you purchased.

If for example you purchased a ticket only valid after say 0900 and you purchased that ticket prior to a train departing before 0900 (in your example buying a ticket at 0840 when there is a train at 0850) then they will make an assumption that you used the ticket on the 0850 contrary to its validity. They may then use CCTV to establish you boarding the 0850 train.

 

[Commuter23]

Thanks all for your replies.
I will wait for the letter and see what they ask. I agree being completely transparent is going to be the best solution. I will give an update once I hear from them.

 

[father_jack]

OP did you buy your ticket from a ticket machine ? I'm in the industry and encounter particular issues where ticket machines are set to sell all types of tickets all of the time. In times gone by a manager would set the machine not to sell off peak until the ticket is valid thus reducing the chance of entrapment when the passenger either doesn't know the validity or will take a chance (like you did).

 

[Haywain]

OP did you buy your ticket from a ticket machine ? I'm in the industry and encounter particular issues where ticket machines are set to sell all types of tickets all of the time. In times gone by a manager would set the machine not to sell off peak until the ticket is valid thus reducing the chance of entrapment when the passenger either doesn't know the validity or will take a chance (like you did).

I'm not sure this is particularly relevant as the OP is clearly aware of the validity of such a ticket, and that the most significant offence will be travelling beyond the last station where the ticket could have been valid, regardless of time.

 

[Commuter23]

Quick update on this case. 4 months after the fact I haven't heard from Gatwick Express/ Southern. I have decided to seek for legal advice, solicitors ask for between $600 to £900 to negotiate and out of court settlement.

 

[T-Karmel]

Quick update on this case. 4 months after the fact I haven't heard from Gatwick Express/ Southern. I have decided to seek for legal advice, solicitors ask for between $600 to £900 to negotiate and out of court settlement.

Given you provided them with exact and correct details of yours, you shouldn't miss out on a letter from them.

They can only take the case to court if it is within 6 months from the moment they caught you. And those cases get often outdated before they even start processing them, and then they close the case without even contacting you. But you'd need to be sure that officer wrote down your details correctly in his notebook.

 

[WesternLancer]

Quick update on this case. 4 months after the fact I haven't heard from Gatwick Express/ Southern. I have decided to seek for legal advice, solicitors ask for between $600 to £900 to negotiate and out of court settlement.

I doubt you need legal advice at this stage. I would

- wait for letter from train company
- reply to that and see how they respond
- depending on response consider legal advice / help then

if you have not been contacted yet are you reasonably sure they took and you gave a correct postal address? and that you have not moved address since the incident?

 

[nanstallon]

It seems as though travelling past the station on his ticket may have been accidental. If so, is that an offence at all? Of course, he'd need to convince the TOC/ court that it was indeed accidental. Perhaps he can show that his normal destination is indeed the one on his ticket, and that such destination was his normal place of work or place where a relative/ friend lived.

 

[Haywain]

It seems as though travelling past the station on his ticket may have been accidental. If so, is that an offence at all?

Yes, and we don’t know how far past the stop on the ticket the OP had travelled which is likely to be relevant. And the TOC are likely to see the the holding of an invalid off peak ticket as throwing doubt on whether the over-riding was really accidental. Although to date the OP hasn’t heard from the TOC so there’s a chance he might get lucky.

 

[BluePenguin]

Out of interest, would it not have been most appropriate to simply charge the OP an excess for ticket they currently held to the next station at the Any time rate? The fact that they bought a ticket should help to prove they were not intending to travel beyond the boundary of their tickets validity. Could they prove that the OP was intending to avoid paying the correct fare with this in mind?

 

[Watershed]

Yes, and we don’t know how far past the stop on the ticket the OP had travelled which is likely to be relevant. And the TOC are likely to see the the holding of an invalid off peak ticket as throwing doubt on whether the over-riding was really accidental. Although to date the OP hasn’t heard from the TOC so there’s a chance he might get lucky.

The Byelaws do not criminalise someone who travels beyond the validity of their ticket, so long as they had a valid ticket when they boarded their train.

Therefore intent to avoid payment must be proven for an offence to be made out. Of course, producing an apparently short-faring Off-Peak ticket at a restricted time is likely to contribute to such proof.

 

[MotCO]

Some of my post has been delayed or lost in the post. If the letter from the Train Operating Company to the OP has been lost in the post, what should the OP do about it? Should he contact the TOC? If the TOC have written and not received a response, how can the OP prove he/she never received the letter?

To the OP: if you do receive an out of Court settlement, please always ensure that you have a correct ticket to travel - you will not be treated leniently again.

 

[Commuter23]

Update on this case hopefully the last one.

Several months after the incident I am contacted by the TOC with the intention to prosecute letter. My solicitor managed the communication and I got offered an out of court settlement for £130 + the unpaid fare.
My case was then treated as a one-off and no investigation has occurred. Just my opinion but I had the impression the TOC is currently understaffed and willing to resolve this incident smoothly and quickly with an easy return for them.

Overall, I am joyful. I have gone through the worse half a year of my life and I hope my experience can be an example to anyone who is inexperienced and unfamiliar with TOC prosecution policies as I was.
I should also say to those in similar situations to don’t dishearten. I was in panic, couldn’t eat or sleep for weeks, however I found comfort in facing the situation and have a plan for every possible outcome. I found this forum extremely useful and I was reading night and day happy ending stories. I also found talking to a solicitor very relieving (although expensive) and ultimately you should think that TOC are running bussiness and willing to collaborate if they can ensure return of money and a lesson was learnt.

 

[Haywain]

Update on this case hopefully the last one.

Several months after the incident I am contacted by the TOC with the intention to prosecute letter. My solicitor managed the communication and I got offered an out of court settlement for £130 + the unpaid fare.
My case was then treated as a one-off and no investigation has occurred. Just my opinion but I had the impression the TOC is currently understaffed and willing to resolve this incident smoothly and quickly with an easy return for them.

Overall, I am joyful. I have gone through the worse half a year of my life and I hope my experience can be an example to anyone who is inexperienced and unfamiliar with TOC prosecution policies as I was.
I should also say to those in similar situations to don’t dishearten. I was in panic, couldn’t eat or sleep for weeks, however I found comfort in facing the situation and have a plan for every possible outcome. I found this forum extremely useful and I was reading night and day happy ending stories. I also found talking to a solicitor very relieving (although expensive) and ultimately you should think that TOC are running bussiness and willing to collaborate if they can ensure return of money and a lesson was learnt.

Good to know that you got a satisfactory conclusion. For the benefit of anyone reading this thread in the future, it is important to stress that we see many people on this forum who reach such a satisfactory conclusion without the need to engage professional legal help or incurring the additional expense involved.j

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Update on this case hopefully the last one.

Several months after the incident I am contacted by the TOC with the intention to prosecute letter. My solicitor managed the communication and I got offered an out of court settlement for £130 + the unpaid fare.
My case was then treated as a one-off and no investigation has occurred. Just my opinion but I had the impression the TOC is currently understaffed and willing to resolve this incident smoothly and quickly with an easy return for them.

Overall, I am joyful. I have gone through the worse half a year of my life and I hope my experience can be an example to anyone who is inexperienced and unfamiliar with TOC prosecution policies as I was.
I should also say to those in similar situations to don’t dishearten. I was in panic, couldn’t eat or sleep for weeks, however I found comfort in facing the situation and have a plan for every possible outcome. I found this forum extremely useful and I was reading night and day happy ending stories. I also found talking to a solicitor very relieving (although expensive) and ultimately you should think that TOC are running bussiness and willing to collaborate if they can ensure return of money and a lesson was learnt.

Excellent, so hopefully you're fairly satisfied with the outcome, and I personally don't think £130 is too bad considering you probably did take the occasional (minor) liberty or two!

Important to note, however, that you're unlikely to get a second chance! So your travel needs to be squeaky clean for quite a while!

It's easier said than done, but for any new person reading this, you don't need to have that level of anxiety, regardless of the 'crime', even for more serious matters. Once you accept there's nothing in your control about this process, (aside from the apologetic tone), it's better to just try your best to continue on as normal. For railway matters, virtually all of the cases I've seen on here (and in the course of my legal career), you are almost certain to reach an 'out of court settlement / financial penalty' if:

1. The police aren't involved
2. You've not been abusive, obstructive, uncooperative or done something similarly unwise
3. There's no serious criminality (e.g. counterfeiting / photoshopped documents / documents in another name) or you've not done something else blatantly illegal at the same time, e.g. jumped over / pushed through a ticket barrier.
4. The value of the fare evasion is relatively low (i.e. not in the £ thousands)
5. It is your first time being stopped and reported.
6. You don't go "on the offensive" and try to offer up any number of weird and wonderful excuses why you did what you did, or start complaining about the process.
7. You pay the settlement immediately and don't argue about the amount.

If you meet all 7 of these, I'd say your chances of avoiding any criminal action at all, and without the need for legal assistance (and incurring those costs), will be 95% plus. I would caveat that this apply to the main train operators, as TfL seem (anecdotally) to take a less flexible stance and it's actually very unlikely you will be able to settle with them regardless of your circumstances.

As much as I advocate legal representation - you only need this if you:

1) Deny you've done anything wrong at all and will not be settling with them, even if they offer or;
2) You haven't been offered a settlement and receive a summons or Single Justice Procedure Notice (SJPN).
3) Any career/industry you work in where even a civil settlement to resolve a criminal matter would be 'expected' to be declared.
4) It involves TfL

Any other time will be unnecessary hassle and cost for you.

 

[WesternLancer]

Update on this case hopefully the last one.

Several months after the incident I am contacted by the TOC with the intention to prosecute letter. My solicitor managed the communication and I got offered an out of court settlement for £130 + the unpaid fare.
My case was then treated as a one-off and no investigation has occurred. Just my opinion but I had the impression the TOC is currently understaffed and willing to resolve this incident smoothly and quickly with an easy return for them.

Overall, I am joyful. I have gone through the worse half a year of my life and I hope my experience can be an example to anyone who is inexperienced and unfamiliar with TOC prosecution policies as I was.
I should also say to those in similar situations to don’t dishearten. I was in panic, couldn’t eat or sleep for weeks, however I found comfort in facing the situation and have a plan for every possible outcome. I found this forum extremely useful and I was reading night and day happy ending stories. I also found talking to a solicitor very relieving (although expensive) and ultimately you should think that TOC are running bussiness and willing to collaborate if they can ensure return of money and a lesson was learnt.

Looks like a reasonable settlement fee there. Glad you got it sorted and thanks for updating the thread. Hope the solicitor fees were not too much, but it sounds like you will have considered them worth paying for wider reasons/ peace of mind, which is understandable.

 

[MotCO]

Excellent, so hopefully you're fairly satisfied with the outcome, and I personally don't think £130 is too bad considering you probably did take the occasional (minor) liberty or two!

Important to note, however, that you're unlikely to get a second chance! So your travel needs to be squeaky clean for quite a while!

It's easier said than done, but for any new person reading this, you don't need to have that level of anxiety, regardless of the 'crime', even for more serious matters. Once you accept there's nothing in your control about this process, (aside from the apologetic tone), it's better to just try your best to continue on as normal. For railway matters, virtually all of the cases I've seen on here (and in the course of my legal career), you are almost certain to reach an 'out of court settlement / financial penalty' if:

1. The police aren't involved
2. You've not been abusive, obstructive, uncooperative or done something similarly unwise
3. There's no serious criminality (e.g. counterfeiting / photoshopped documents / documents in another name) or you've not done something else blatantly illegal at the same time, e.g. jumped over / pushed through a ticket barrier.
4. The value of the fare evasion is relatively low (i.e. not in the £ thousands)
5. It is your first time being stopped and reported.
6. You don't go "on the offensive" and try to offer up any number of weird and wonderful excuses why you did what you did, or start complaining about the process.
7. You pay the settlement immediately and don't argue about the amount.

If you meet all 7 of these, I'd say your chances of avoiding any criminal action at all, and without the need for legal assistance (and incurring those costs), will be 95% plus. I would caveat that this apply to the main train operators, as TfL seem (anecdotally) to take a less flexible stance and it's actually very unlikely you will be able to settle with them regardless of your circumstances.

As much as I advocate legal representation - you only need this if you:

1) Deny you've done anything wrong at all and will not be settling with them, even if they offer or;
2) You haven't been offered a settlement and receive a summons or Single Justice Procedure Notice (SJPN).
3) Any career/industry you work in where even a civil settlement to resolve a criminal matter would be 'expected' to be declared.
4) It involves TfL

Any other time will be unnecessary hassle and cost for you.

Can I add 8. to the top list:

8. You respond directly, accurately and politely to any corrrespondence received, and provide a correct contact address. Failure to engage with the TOC, however unfairly you think you have been treated, will not count in your favour.​

 

[furlong]

People shouldn't read that list of 7 conditions the wrong way - see the threads on here where people didn't meet all those 7 conditions but still negotiated a settlement.

[edited to remove misquote]

 

[Western Sunset]

Are we mixing-up TfL with TIL?

 

[furlong]

Are we mixing-up TfL with TIL?

Sorry - my font was too small! We have seen settlements with TfL too on here, but they seem to need a lot more effort to achieve.

 

[Western Sunset]

Sorry - my font was too small! We have seen settlements with TfL too on here, but they seem to need a lot more effort to achieve.

No bother. Easy way to remember:
TfL = Transport for London
TIL = Taking Incredible Liberties (with consumers rights)