Caught without 16-25 railcard

[tvrr123]

Hey guys

So today I purchased return tickets for a journey to Cambridge via Trainpal (Great Northern). The tickets came to ~£18. Stupidly of me, I forgot to untick the 'railcard' option out of habit.

I've just been checked by a ticket inspector, and being unsure of what to do, I told him I had a physical railcard at home, but was unsure of whether it is expired or not (I believe it has been expired for around 2 years). He handed me a 'forgot to carry' notice, and was told that I would be contacted by Great Northern and need to present my railcard in 14 days.

What is the best way for me to approach this? I don't have an in-date railcard to present, and would not like to be sent to court regarding this.

If they do settle on handing me a fine, what amount can I expect? I had a purchased total of 4 tickets (2 for each way).

I'm planning on hopefully sending a response to them once I hear from them, apologising and explaining the situation, that I'm keen for resolution without court and will pay the outstanding fare. Would love to get some more advice to see how best to control the damage.

 

[Brissle Girl]

Welcome to the forum!

I guess one question that may be asked of you is why the railcard option would be set as default if you haven’t had a valid railcard for about two years? And the next question (which is very relevant to your situation) is how many other such tickets have you bought since it expired? If the answer is lots then this could be about to get very expensive for you, as the investigation that will almost certainly happen into your previous purchases will find these. Although in your favour, GTR appears to be less draconian in its settlement offers than many companies.

You are likely to be offered an out of court settlement in due course, provided you are honest, polite, and cooperative in response to the letter that you will get sent in due course.

 

[tvrr123]

Welcome to the forum!

I guess one question that may be asked of you is why the railcard option would be set as default if you haven’t had a valid railcard for about two years? And the next question (which is very relevant to your situation) is how many other such tickets have you bought since it expired? If the answer is lots then this could be about to get very expensive for you, as the investigation that will almost certainly happen into your previous purchases will find these. Although in your favour, GTR appears to be less draconian in its settlement offers than many companies.

You are likely to be offered an out of court settlement in due course, provided you are honest, polite, and cooperative in response to the letter that you will get sent in due course

With Trainpal, the option is set to how it was when you last used it. I think I have just kept that option on since the times when I had a valid railcard. And that's worrying to hear - going through my records, in the last 2 years I have bought around 5-6 train tickets.

I'm thinking to phone the penalty fare number and explain that I am willing to pay the penalty fare upfront if possible, before paperwork had to be sent through.

 

[WesternLancer]

If they do settle on handing me a fine, what amount can I expect? I had a purchased total of 4 tickets (2 for each way).

Why did you do this can you clarify - was this for 4 separate single trips for you? If so and any of the trips are yet to happen then if you buy a Railcard now / before stepping on board any of the trains you are yet to use, the other Railcard discounted tickets will become valid

Or 2 tickets with one pair for you and the other pair for another person travelling with you? If so did that other person have a valid Railcard? If not then that is a separate problem (albeit one for them to resolve not you).

As mentioned above you need to be aware that the Train company will start to look through all your past ticket purchases via any on line retailer to find any occasions when you bought tickets with a Railcard discount applied but when you can't show you had a Valid, in date Railcard and are likely to want money for those journeys. From what you say this could be all tickets you have bought with a railcard discount in the last 2 years.

They will commence this investigation when you fail to supply proof of the valid Railcard that you said that you left at home when asked on the train to show it.

As a start you probably need to think how to respond to the 'Forgot to Carry' notice by telling them that eg 'when you checked the card you discovered it had actually expired, apologise and ask them if you can pay any sum owed for the travel involved'.
If you immediately renew your Railcard now (assuming you are entitled to one still) you can explain that you have taken steps to prevent the problem happening again. This will help the matter not going to court.

With Trainpal, the option is set to how it was when you last used it. I think I have just kept that option on since the times when I had a valid railcard. And that's worrying to hear - going through my records, in the last 2 years I have bought around 5-6 train tickets.

I'm thinking to phone the penalty fare number and explain that I am willing to pay the penalty fare upfront if possible, before paperwork had to be sent through.

So are you now saying you were issued with a Penalty Fare (PF)?
Because your 1st message only said "He handed me a 'forgot to carry' notice, and was told that I would be contacted by Great Northern and need to present my railcard in 14 days".

If you were issued with a PF then yes, you probably need to pay it promptly to benefit from the 50% discount for prompt payment.

But you also need to prepare that they may contact you separately about previous travel with tickets that are not valid because of your Railcard.

It might help if you can upload copies of anything you were given when your ticket was checked with personal details / ref numbers blanked out for people to understand clearly what happened.

 

[tvrr123]

Why did you do this can you clarify - was this for 4 separate single trips for you? If so and any of the trips are yet to happen then if you buy a Railcard now / before stepping on board any of the trains you are yet to use, the other Railcard discounted tickets will become valid

Or 2 tickets with one pair for you and the other pair for another person travelling with you? If so did that other person have a valid Railcard? If not then that is a separate problem (albeit one for them to resolve not you).

As mentioned above you need to be aware that the Train company will start to look through all your past ticket purchases via any on line retailer to find any occasions when you bought tickets with a Railcard discount applied but when you can't show you had a Valid, in date Railcard and are likely to want money for those journeys. From what you say this could be all tickets you have bought with a railcard discount in the last 2 years.

They will commence this investigation when you fail to supply proof of the valid Railcard that you said that you left at home when asked on the train to show it.

As a start you probably need to think how to respond to the 'Forgot to Carry' notice by telling them that eg 'when you checked the card you discovered it had actually expired, apologise and ask them if you can pay any sum owed for the travel involved'.
If you immediately renew your Railcard now (assuming you are entitled to one still) you can explain that you have taken steps to prevent the problem happening again. This will help the matter not going to court.

I purchased one journey to and one journey from Cambridge - each of these journeys were split between 2 train rides. So in total I was given 4 physical tickets (2 tickets there and 2 tickets back). I am yet to get on the train for my journey back from Cambridge. The inspector gave me a slip which he said I can show to any other inspector for the subsequent journeys.

I'm no longer 16-25yrs old, and so I don't think I'd be able to renew the railcard. Would it be worth me purchasing a new one now and explaining that I have tried to prevent the problem from happening in the future?

Why did you do this can you clarify - was this for 4 separate single trips for you? If so and any of the trips are yet to happen then if you buy a Railcard now / before stepping on board any of the trains you are yet to use, the other Railcard discounted tickets will become valid

Or 2 tickets with one pair for you and the other pair for another person travelling with you? If so did that other person have a valid Railcard? If not then that is a separate problem (albeit one for them to resolve not you).

As mentioned above you need to be aware that the Train company will start to look through all your past ticket purchases via any on line retailer to find any occasions when you bought tickets with a Railcard discount applied but when you can't show you had a Valid, in date Railcard and are likely to want money for those journeys. From what you say this could be all tickets you have bought with a railcard discount in the last 2 years.

They will commence this investigation when you fail to supply proof of the valid Railcard that you said that you left at home when asked on the train to show it.

As a start you probably need to think how to respond to the 'Forgot to Carry' notice by telling them that eg 'when you checked the card you discovered it had actually expired, apologise and ask them if you can pay any sum owed for the travel involved'.
If you immediately renew your Railcard now (assuming you are entitled to one still) you can explain that you have taken steps to prevent the problem happening again. This will help the matter not going to court.


So are you now saying you were issued with a Penalty Fare (PF)?
Because your 1st message only said "He handed me a 'forgot to carry' notice, and was told that I would be contacted by Great Northern and need to present my railcard in 14 days".

If you were issued with a PF then yes, you probably need to pay it promptly to benefit from the 50% discount for prompt payment.

But you also need to prepare that they may contact you separately about previous travel with tickets that are not valid because of your Railcard.

It might help if you can upload copies of anything you were given when your ticket was checked with personal details / ref numbers blanked out for people to understand clearly what happened.

No he handed me a slip with the information for submitting my railcard information, since I told him I had forgotten it at home. A 'witness statement receipt'

 

[Haywain]

Whilst we would normally advise you to wait for a letter, as you have been issued with a witness statement (also known as an MG11) you could help to move things along by writing and explaining that you do not actually hold an in date railcard. This would lead to a slight acceleration of the process and doesn't do anything to incriminate you that failing to send a railcard won't also do.

 

[tvrr123]

Whilst we would normally advise you to wait for a letter, as you have been issued with a witness statement (also known as an MG11) you could help to move things along by writing and explaining that you do not actually hold an in date railcard. This would lead to a slight acceleration of the process and doesn't do anything to incriminate you that failing to send a railcard won't also do.

I see, I will definitely get in contact with them first then. Would it be worth me calling the penalty fare team and offering to pay the full fare before needing any correspondence to be sent to me?

 

[Haywain]

Would it be worth me calling the penalty fare team and offering to pay the full fare before needing any correspondence to be sent to me?

No. You have not been issued with a Penalty Fare, and you will have to wait and see how much GTR will want to settle the matter.

 

[WesternLancer]

I purchased one journey to and one journey from Cambridge - each of these journeys were split between 2 train rides. So in total I was given 4 physical tickets (2 tickets there and 2 tickets back). I am yet to get on the train for my journey back from Cambridge. The inspector gave me a slip which he said I can show to any other inspector for the subsequent journeys.

I'm no longer 16-25yrs old, and so I don't think I'd be able to renew the railcard. Would it be worth me purchasing a new one now and explaining that I have tried to prevent the problem from happening in the future?


No he handed me a slip with the information for submitting my railcard information, since I told him I had forgotten it at home. A 'witness statement receipt'

OK - so if you are no longer aged 16-25 there is no ability to buy that Railcard and it be of any use to you as far as I can see (had you been eligible for it it would have made the return portions of the ticket valid for later today - but you can't do that since you are not eligible for the Railcard)

You could buy a 26-30 Railcard (if aged within that) or a Network railcard to help reduce future travel costs but that won't make these tickets valid since they are issued against a different Railcard than a network railcard and thus buying a Network Railcard today won't make those unused tickets valid.

You have been given a slip because he believed you had a 16-25 Railcard at home (which you don't) so these tickets will not become valid and they will want paying at the Full Anytime rate for them when they calculate what you owe (or what they will argue you have evaded paying).

I think if any of the tickets are unused so far you would be better to not use them and refund them and buy a new Adult rate ticket for future travel (or buy the Network Card / 26-30 Railcard now and buy new tickets discounted with that Railcard Card discount) . At least that might allow you to buy a new ticket at the Off Peak rate for example - which would be cheaper than the sum they may charge you when they calculate how much you owe for the tickets that are invalid (usually / often charged out at the more expensive 'Anytime' fare).

 

[Haywain]

I'm no longer 16-25yrs old

How old are you?

 

[tvrr123]

How old are you?

27

OK - so if you are no longer aged 16-25 there is no ability to buy that Railcard and it be of any use to you as far as I can see (had you been eligible for it it would have made the return portions of the ticket valid for later today - but you can't do that since you are not eligible for the Railcard)

You could buy a 26-30 Railcard (if aged within that) or a Network railcard to help reduce future travel costs but that won't make these tickets valid since they are issued against a different Railcard than a network railcard and thus buying a Network Railcard today won't make those unused tickets valid.

You have been given a slip because he believed you had a 16-25 Railcard at home (which you don't) so these tickets will not become valid and they will want paying at the Full Anytime rate for them when they calculate what you owe (or what they will argue you have evaded paying).

I think if any of the tickets are unused so far you would be better to not use them and refund them and buy a new Adult rate ticket for future travel (or buy the Network Card / 26-30 Railcard now and buy new tickets discounted with that Railcard Card discount) . At least that might allow you to buy a new ticket at the Off Peak rate for example - which would be cheaper than the sum they may charge you when they calculate how much you owe for the tickets that are invalid (usually / often charged out at the more expensive 'Anytime' fare).

Sorry for the short replies, trying to sort all of this before my train in 30mins. The ticket inspector took details and pictures of all my tickets, including the unused return ones. Would it still be worth me refunding and buying new full priced ones to soften the blow?

 

[Haywain]

27

The railcard you can look at is the 26-30 Railcard.

 

[tvrr123]

27


Sorry for the short replies, trying to sort all of this before my train in 30mins. The ticket inspector took details and pictures of all my tickets, including the unused return ones. Would it still be worth me refunding and buying new full priced ones to soften the blow?

Turns out the tickets are non-refundable unless cancellation etc, a railcard + new tickets would come to £50. I’ve purchased both since I hope it will help with my case that I’ve tried to remedy the situation

 

[WesternLancer]

Turns out the tickets are non-refundable unless cancellation etc, a railcard + new tickets would come to £50. I’ve purchased both since I hope it will help with my case that I’ve tried to remedy the situation

Annoying that tickets were non refundable but yes, I think it will help your case as when you have to show them what you have done you can clearly state (and show - keep copies of all the stuff inc the new and the old tickets that you can't refund) that you took action to 'put things right' as soon as the problem came to your attention.