• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

CDR validity Brighton to London Bridge

Status
Not open for further replies.
Joined
19 Feb 2015
Messages
45
Hi all

I'm looking at fares from Brighton to London Bridge.

The first off-peak train leaves at 0839 but the Trainline offers two almost identical fares called 'Off-Peak Day Return' for £21.60.

Both share the code CDR, presumably 'cheap day return', but on the validity panel one says 'valid only on Thameslink' and the other 'any off peak train'.

Are these the same ticket or not?
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Hadders

Veteran Member
Associate Staff
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
27 Apr 2011
Messages
15,994
The Off Peak Day Return costing £37.00 is valid on trains operated by any train operating company between Brighton and London.

The fare costing £21.60 is routed 'Thameslink only' and is intended to be valid on all Thameslink branded trains betweem Brighton and London.

The validity of the Thameslink Only tickets is disputed because there is no legal provision for tickets to be restricted by brand, only by train operating company and so legally the Thameslink only ticket is valid on all trains operated by Govia Thameslink Railway (who operate trains under the Thameslink, Southern, Gatwick Express and Great Northern brands). There is ongoing legal action about this.

From a pragmatic point of view, if you purchase the Thameslink only ticket then I would travel only on Thameslink branded services. If you do decide to use a Thameslink only ticket on a Southern or Gatwick Express branded train and encounter hassle, then co-operate and pay any excess fare. I'm sure @yorkie would be very interested to know about any hassle and would be able to assist in pursuing with GTR.
 

MrJeeves

Established Member
Associate Staff
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
28 Aug 2015
Messages
3,344
Location
Burgess Hill
pay any excess fare
A TOC restriction can't be excessed away, can it?

Either way, typically I've found Southern OBSes generally either don't check tickets or just issue a verbal "warning". Not had any experience with GX other than when I asked staff before boarding if it was alright and they said yes.
 
Joined
19 Feb 2015
Messages
45
Interesting info, thanks all.

There's a southern train back from London bridge at 17.33 which should take less than an hour to Preston park, but more often than not it gets stuck in Thameslink traffic and takes ages.

Note there are two off peak returns for £21.60 - I wasn't considering the £37 fare that would presumably go to Victoria. If I need Victoria I'd get the £28.60 travel card and go via Blackfriars, or the £21.60 return and pay for the tube. Either way, the £37 ticket is a con.
 

greatkingrat

Established Member
Joined
20 Jan 2011
Messages
3,029
The two tickets shown are
CDR BRIGHTON - LONDON TERMINALS (Thameslink Only) - 21.60
CDR BRIGHTON - LONDON THAMESLINK (Not Underground) - 21.60

So there is no reason not to buy the one that says it is valid on any train - it avoids any possible argument about TOC restrictions, and it also allow you travel as far as St Pancras if you wish.
 
Joined
19 Feb 2015
Messages
45
The two tickets shown are
CDR BRIGHTON - LONDON TERMINALS (Thameslink Only) - 21.60
CDR BRIGHTON - LONDON THAMESLINK (Not Underground) - 21.60

So there is no reason not to buy the one that says it is valid on any train - it avoids any possible argument about TOC restrictions, and it also allow you travel as far as St Pancras if you wish.
Yes, that's the plan. But if I'm in a rush I might buy the wrong one and it seems odd that these almost identical tickets are for sale. I wonder what the ticket office would sell me
 

AlbertBeale

Established Member
Joined
16 Jun 2019
Messages
3,188
Location
London
Hi all

I'm looking at fares from Brighton to London Bridge.

The first off-peak train leaves at 0839 but the Trainline offers two almost identical fares called 'Off-Peak Day Return' for £21.60.

Both share the code CDR, presumably 'cheap day return', but on the validity panel one says 'valid only on Thameslink' and the other 'any off peak train'.

Are these the same ticket or not?

There are two differently defined cheap day returns on that route - though they're the same price (except of course that on Trainline either might be more expensive than buying from the station because of Trainline's mark-up!).

One ticket is (technically*) valid only on Thameslink branded trains - it's simply a Brighton-London ticket with that specific (alleged) "brand" restriction. (*But that's something I won't go into here...) Its validity stops at a London terminal on the south side of London (ie it's valid a bit further than London Bridge if you want, such as to Blackfriars).

The other ticket is between Brighton and London Thameslink destinations - ie London Bridge, Blackfriars, and anywhere as far as St Pancras.

The latter ticket is obviously better value since you could take any train (subject to off-peak time restrictions) for the southern half of the journey (eg including ones branded Southern or Gatwick Express), as well as having the normal Brighton-London option of travelling via - or breaking your journey at, or stopping/starting short at - Hove or Lewes. It's also better value if you want to go across London as far as St P (though only by T/L - the ticket route will be marked "Not Underground"). For the part of your journey between East Croydon and London, you have to be en route to London Bridge - though even that allows travel on non-T/L trains on that route if convenient.

There's not really anything you can do with the first ticket [unless you want a legal hoo-ha over the legality of brand restrictions] that you can't do with the second sort.
 

Hadders

Veteran Member
Associate Staff
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
27 Apr 2011
Messages
15,994
Yes, that's the plan. But if I'm in a rush I might buy the wrong one and it seems odd that these almost identical tickets are for sale. I wonder what the ticket office would sell me
The ticket office should sell you what you ask for. If you want the ticket to London Thameslink when specifically ask for a 'Brighton to London Thameslink Off Peak Day Return'.

Don't complicate things by saying London Bridge, or I'm going to get off early etc.
 

AlbertBeale

Established Member
Joined
16 Jun 2019
Messages
3,188
Location
London
Yes, that's the plan. But if I'm in a rush I might buy the wrong one and it seems odd that these almost identical tickets are for sale. I wonder what the ticket office would sell me

The ticket office will sell you whichever you ask for, in my experience. (As long as you know what you want...) If in doubt, and likely to be in a rush on the day, then buy from the station ahead of time to make sure you get the best one.
 

david1212

Established Member
Joined
9 Apr 2020
Messages
1,575
Location
Midlands
The two tickets shown are
CDR BRIGHTON - LONDON TERMINALS (Thameslink Only) - 21.60
CDR BRIGHTON - LONDON THAMESLINK (Not Underground) - 21.60

The ticket office will sell you whichever you ask for, in my experience. (As long as you know what you want...) If in doubt, and likely to be in a rush on the day, then buy from the station ahead of time to make sure you get the best one.

If presented with these two options exactly as worded online or at a TVM are Joe & Joanne Public really expected to understand there is a difference between these two tickets and what the difference is?
At a ticket office if they asked for a Brighton to London Bridge CDR would they be offered both with the difference clearly explained?

......
There's not really anything you can do with the first ticket [unless you want a legal hoo-ha over the legality of brand restrictions] that you can't do with the second sort.

... which begs the question of why does the first exist / why has it not been withdrawn?
 

Haywain

Veteran Member
Joined
3 Feb 2013
Messages
19,864
At a ticket office if they asked for a Brighton to London Bridge CDR would they be offered both with the difference clearly explained?
In the first instance they should be asked about their plans after arriving at London Bridge - whether they were travelling around London so might need a travelcard, and when/where they were planning on returning from. Then they can be sold the most appropriate ticket for their requirements.
 

Watershed

Veteran Member
Associate Staff
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
26 Sep 2020
Messages
13,939
Location
UK
They aren't the same; the fares structure for this route is very confusing and unhelpful.

The ticket described as 'valid only on Thameslink' is issued to London Terminals. This means it is valid for travel as far as City Thameslink when coming from the south, as is the case here. Govia Thameslink Railway (GTR) is the company that operates Thameslink, Southern, Gatwick Express and Great Northern branded trains; their position is that "Thameslink only" tickets are not valid on their Southern or Gatwick Express brands.

However, it has long been thought that this is incorrect for various legal reasons and there is an ongoing class action lawsuit regarding Penalty Fares and additional fares that GTR has charged to passengers using "Thameslink only" tickets. Suffice it to say, if you want a hassle-free journey then stick to Thameslink-branded services, but if you are happy to potentially appeal a Penalty Fare (in our experience, this is likely to be successful) then you could use any brand of GTR services to any station that falls within the definition of London Terminals when coming from this direction, i.e. Victoria, London Bridge, Blackfriars or City Thameslink.

The ticket somewhat misleadingly described by Trainline as 'any off-peak train' is actually routed 'Not Underground' and is issued to London Thameslink - this means it is valid for travel as far as St Pancras. Since the route only excludes the use of Underground trains (which such a ticket wouldn't normally be valid on anyway) it is perfectly valid on all operators' services (including all GTR brands) and you should not face any difficulties in doing so. The restriction is more one of routing, since there has recently been a negative easement introduced which prohibits travelling via Victoria or Waterloo to London Bridge etc. on a London Thameslink ticket (something that was previously permissible and which you could get itineraries for).

So, in short, I'd say the one described as 'valid on any off-peak train' is the one you want to buy, as it affords you greater flexibility for the same price. It allows you to use other GTR brands as far as Gatwick Airport or East Croydon without hassle, and it also allows you to continue onto Farringdon or St Pancras should you wish to do so.

If you want the flexibility to use any operator or route to any London station, you're best off buying a ticket to somewhere like West Hampstead Thameslink. This is then routed "+Any Permitted" and not only avoids any potential difficulties with brands or routes, but also includes a return journey on the Underground between two recognised National Rail <> Underground interchange stations (see the list about halfway down this page). This does cost slightly more at £27.70 for an equivalent Off-Peak Day Return, but you might consider that a worthwhile tradeoff - especially if you can make use of the Underground validity.
 

Haywain

Veteran Member
Joined
3 Feb 2013
Messages
19,864
For completeness, it should probably be mentioned that there are also Off Peak and Super Off Peak Day Returns from Brighton to London Victoria, route Any Permitted. Just in case it wasn't complex enough already!
 

AlbertBeale

Established Member
Joined
16 Jun 2019
Messages
3,188
Location
London
They aren't the same; the fares structure for this route is very confusing and unhelpful.

The ticket described as 'valid only on Thameslink' is issued to London Terminals. This means it is valid for travel as far as City Thameslink when coming from the south, as is the case here. Govia Thameslink Railway (GTR) is the company that operates Thameslink, Southern, Gatwick Express and Great Northern branded trains; their position is that "Thameslink only" tickets are not valid on their Southern or Gatwick Express brands.

However, it has long been thought that this is incorrect for various legal reasons and there is an ongoing class action lawsuit regarding Penalty Fares and additional fares that GTR has charged to passengers using "Thameslink only" tickets. Suffice it to say, if you want a hassle-free journey then stick to Thameslink-branded services, but if you are happy to potentially appeal a Penalty Fare (in our experience, this is likely to be successful) then you could use any brand of GTR services to any station that falls within the definition of London Terminals when coming from this direction, i.e. Victoria, London Bridge, Blackfriars or City Thameslink.

The ticket somewhat misleadingly described by Trainline as 'any off-peak train' is actually routed 'Not Underground' and is issued to London Thameslink - this means it is valid for travel as far as St Pancras. Since the route only excludes the use of Underground trains (which such a ticket wouldn't normally be valid on anyway) it is perfectly valid on all operators' services (including all GTR brands) and you should not face any difficulties in doing so. The restriction is more one of routing, since there has recently been a negative easement introduced which prohibits travelling via Victoria or Waterloo to London Bridge etc. on a London Thameslink ticket (something that was previously permissible and which you could get itineraries for).

So, in short, I'd say the one described as 'valid on any off-peak train' is the one you want to buy, as it affords you greater flexibility for the same price. It allows you to use other GTR brands as far as Gatwick Airport or East Croydon without hassle, and it also allows you to continue onto Farringdon or St Pancras should you wish to do so.

If you want the flexibility to use any operator or route to any London station, you're best off buying a ticket to somewhere like West Hampstead Thameslink. This is then routed "+Any Permitted" and not only avoids any potential difficulties with brands or routes, but also includes a return journey on the Underground between two recognised National Rail <> Underground interchange stations (see the list about halfway down this page). This does cost slightly more at £27.70 for an equivalent Off-Peak Day Return, but you might consider that a worthwhile tradeoff - especially if you can make use of the Underground validity.

Re any operator or route to any London station - this means, in this case, you're not confined to routes served by other GTR brands; the old traditional rules apply and you can mix and match on your way into any south London terminus, including eg Waterloo and Charing Cross, travelling by any relevant TOC.

This flexibility - by using a beyond London ticket - is especially worthwhile at weekends when the Super Off-Peak beyond London is even closer in price to the Super Off-Peak price of the two different "Thameslink" tickets just to London than the weekday Off-Peak prices are.

For completeness, it should probably be mentioned that there are also Off Peak and Super Off Peak Day Returns from Brighton to London Victoria, route Any Permitted. Just in case it wasn't complex enough already!

Though these cost quite a bit more than either of the "Thameslink" tickets; it's actually cheaper to get a ticket beyond London and simply abandon your journey at Victoria, if you want to end up there specifically!
 

thedbdiboy

Member
Joined
10 Sep 2011
Messages
1,051
The Off Peak Day Return costing £37.00 is valid on trains operated by any train operating company between Brighton and London.

The fare costing £21.60 is routed 'Thameslink only' and is intended to be valid on all Thameslink branded trains betweem Brighton and London.

The validity of the Thameslink Only tickets is disputed because there is no legal provision for tickets to be restricted by brand, only by train operating company and so legally the Thameslink only ticket is valid on all trains operated by Govia Thameslink Railway (who operate trains under the Thameslink, Southern, Gatwick Express and Great Northern brands). There is ongoing legal action about this.

From a pragmatic point of view, if you purchase the Thameslink only ticket then I would travel only on Thameslink branded services. If you do decide to use a Thameslink only ticket on a Southern or Gatwick Express branded train and encounter hassle, then co-operate and pay any excess fare. I'm sure @yorkie would be very interested to know about any hassle and would be able to assist in pursuing with GTR.
There wasn't a provision for a ticket to be restricted by brand in the TSA but there was (and is) a perfectly legal mechanism to restrict tickets by train service using restriction codes. That's what makes the post-2007 mess of Brighton Line fares so ridiculous - the mechanism existed to do it correctly if required.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top