"Cedric Martindale proposes Penrith to Keswick reopening"

[DanBlanchflowe]

Cedric Martindale founder of CKP Railways reports that the bid documents that he submitted with the support of Allerdale District Council and 4 local MP's is one of only 10 out of 60 submissions that is to be taken forward immediately by Department for Transport to the next stage (source: keswick reminder.co.uk).

 

[yorksrob]

That's good news.

I want to go on that line !

 

[Starmill]

Documents for what? Has the route previously had a strategic outline business case made?

 

[bluenoxid]

I’m not so sure of this statement. I think that there has been a misunderstanding.

[Withdrawn] Restoring Your Railway Fund

www.gov.uk

Successful bids for the first round of the Ideas Fund
We are pleased to announce that ten bidders for the first round of the Ideas Fund have been successful in their application for funding to enable them to progress their proposals towards developing a business case.

The bids that have been successful in this first round of the Ideas Fund are:

• reopening Meir Railway Station between Stoke-On-Trent and North Staffordshire
• passenger services on the Barrow Hill line between Sheffield and Chesterfield
• passenger services on the Leicester to Burton (Ivanhoe) line
• reinstatement of branch lines on the Isle of Wight
• reinstatement of passing loop between St Albans Abbey and Watford Junction (Abbey Line)
• reopening of Wellington and Cullompton stations
• passengers services on the Bury-Heywood-Rochdale lines
• regular passenger services on the Clitheroe to Hellifield railway line
• reinstatement of rail access to Devizes via a new station at Lydeway
• passenger services on the Totton-Fawley (Waterside) line

 

[A0]

Cedric Martindale founder of CKP Railways reports that the bid documents that he submitted with the support of Allerdale District Council and 4 local MP's is one of only 10 out of 60 submissions that is to be taken forward immediately by Department for Transport to the next stage (source: keswick reminder.co.uk).

And what it doesn't say is how many of those 10 are likely to be progressed onto the next stage. Or the timelines for that.

If, and it's a big if, this one is successful, it's unlikely anything visible will happen this side of 2030.

There are several reopenings higher up the pecking order that this - Blyth being the obvious one and that has track already in situ.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This one has a very poor business case because the main road, an uncongested dual carriageway, means the bus service is more than sufficient - indeed, it's one of the better ones.

It probably has more value as the cycleway it now is.

 

[bluenoxid]

General Restoring Your Railway fund thread

Govenment Briefing 23rd May - Reversing Beeching Cuts

It appears that we now have a list of successful bids for the first round of the Ideas Fund https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/re-opening-beeching-era-lines-and-stations/re-opening-beeching-era-lines-and-stations Successful bids for the first round of the Ideas Fund We are pleased to...

www.railforums.co.uk

Isle of Wight speculative ideas thread

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/ideas-for-provision-if-disused-railways-are-reopened-on-the-isle-of-wight.204742/

Campaigner suggesting that Penrith-Keswick route has received funding for a new feasibility study thread

Penrith to Keswick reopening taken forward

Cedric Martindale founder of CKP Railways reports that the bid documents that he submitted with the support of Allerdale District Council and 4 local MP's is one of only 10 out of 60 submissions that is to be taken forward immediately by Department for Transport to the next stage (source...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Llandudno]

This one has a very poor business case because the main road, an uncongested dual carriageway, means the bus service is more than sufficient - indeed, it's one of the better ones.

It probably has more value as the cycleway it now is.

Absolutely, it is a shame that the bus service, as good as it is, does not appear on rail journey planners with through fares and proper, advertised connections - a missed marketing opportunity

 

[DanBlanchflowe]

This one has a very poor business case because the main road, an uncongested dual carriageway, means the bus service is more than sufficient - indeed, it's one of the better ones.

It probably has more value as the cycleway it now is.

I disagree. Keswick is the gateway to the North Lakes. The Lakes are England's most sought after National Park. Keswick is heavily reliant on its income from tourism. The A66 is heavily congested at weekends and on any school holiday days. The A591 into Town is then at a stand still for the last 1-2 miles. The car parking is way over capacity. I was in Lakes last Nov with friends who are residents. We saw that in normal times there is now an all year round tourist season.
Properly done with a passing loop and a seperate long platform for excursion trains from London/Manchester/Edinburgh it may make a sound business case.

 

[Starmill]

Absolutely, it is a shame that the bus service, as good as it is, does not appear on rail journey planners with through fares and proper, advertised connections - a missed marketing opportunity

The Department could have easily included this link in the new West Coast Partnership contract, it would have added such a tiny sliver of extra cost and promoted integration and more trips by rail. They didn't, though.

 

[Starmill]

I disagree. Keswick is the gateway to the North Lakes. The Lakes are England's most sought after National Park. Keswick is heavily reliant on its income from tourism. The A66 is heavily congested at weekends and on any school holiday days. The A591 into Town is then at a stand still for the last 1-2 miles. The car parking is way over capacity. I was in Lakes last Nov with friends who are residents. We saw that in normal times there is now an all year round tourist season.
Properly done with a passing loop and a seperate long platform for excursion trains from London/Manchester/Edinburgh it may make a sound business case.

Excursion trains and good business cases are things which almost never intersect.

 

[A0]

Properly done with a passing loop and a seperate long platform for excursion trains from London/Manchester/Edinburgh it may make a sound business case.

Best to put the crayons away now. All you're doing is adding massive cost for highly marginal benefits. Such a platform would need virtually daily use to make it begin to make sense - yet excursion trains by their nature are occasional, infrequent and for that reason have to use existing infrastructure which supports regular services. And a platform for Keswick logically will be for a 6 or 8 car EMU at best.

 

[BigCj34]

I disagree. Keswick is the gateway to the North Lakes. The Lakes are England's most sought after National Park. Keswick is heavily reliant on its income from tourism. The A66 is heavily congested at weekends and on any school holiday days. The A591 into Town is then at a stand still for the last 1-2 miles. The car parking is way over capacity. I was in Lakes last Nov with friends who are residents. We saw that in normal times there is now an all year round tourist season.
Properly done with a passing loop and a seperate long platform for excursion trains from London/Manchester/Edinburgh it may make a sound business case.

The Penrith - Keswick line could be a good heritage line, while it would cost much less someone still would still need to pay for it and then it needs to be self sustaining. It would be an attractive means for arrival for tourists but still would need a bus service for mission critical transport.

How much do heritage lines typically cost per mile to build? If I had the wealth of Jeff Bezos I would be very tempted to fun it myself! Are there any Cumbrian billionaires around?!

The whole of the Lakes needs to up its game for buses, possibly even having a congestion charge. More obscure mountain walks would still require car usage but those just going to see the sights and have the odd low level walk should easily be catered for with buses.

 

[A0]

The Penrith - Keswick line could be a good heritage line, while it would cost much less someone still would still need to pay for it and then it needs to be self sustaining. It would be an attractive means for arrival for tourists but still would need a bus service for mission critical transport.

How much do heritage lines typically cost per mile to build? If I had the wealth of Jeff Bezos I would be very tempted to fun it myself! Are there any Cumbrian billionaires around?!

The whole of the Lakes needs to up its game for buses, possibly even having a congestion charge. More obscure mountain walks would still require car usage but those just going to see the sights and have the odd low level walk should easily be catered for with buses.

Heritage lines rely on volunteers and most are struggling to get new recruits.

There's are several reasons why Heritage Railways haven't become viable options for public transport use - cost being a prime one, they need to make a profit to develop their offering. They usually aren't able to run services for 12-18 hours a day - they'd need the staffing to do that.

The Lakes already has 2 heritage railways in the Lakeside & Haverthwaite and the Ravenglass & Eskdale plus the Threlkeld Mining Museum - a heritage line would be in direct competition with all of those.

I'm not sure the UK can sustain any more heritage railways.

And there are already buses serving quite alot of the walks. If you introduce a congestion charge casual tourists will go elsewhere - Northumbria, Peak District, Wales etc. It's monumental stupidity to suggest a congestion charge to a tourist destination which has plenty of alternatives.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I've never been convinced by this one.

Had the line not been closed, it would be folly to propose closing it now.

But to reconstruct it, with the massive costs that would incur, and the loss of the footpath/cycleway in addition, I just don't think it will be a remotely realistic proposition - from a financial perspective. Numerous bridges have been lost, most recently with the last big floods, the alignment is breached, Keswick Station is in alternative use.

A more frequent bus service, properly integrated into the national rail network (through ticketing, free taxi / delay repay if connections missed and such like) would be my suggestion. I imagine you could provide a personal limo service for rail customers at less expense!

I used to travel this route regularly - several times per year. There were generally other rail customers making the bus connection, but rarely enough to fill a minibus. The main issue being their large volume of luggage and insufficient storage space.

 

[pdeaves]

Mr Martindale has been pushing this line for more years than I care to count. He often seems to have an excessively optimistic opinion of other organisations' blessing for the scheme.

 

[swt_passenger]

Mr Martindale has been pushing this line for more years than I care to count. He often seems to have an excessively optimistic opinion of other organisations' blessing for the scheme.

You have to admire his persistence, going back 15 years or more it was a regular turn in the uk.railway newsgroup, with very little support.

But I see nothing about it in recent DfT announcements, could he have been tipped off that it’s in the next list, yet to be published?

 

[Starmill]

How much do heritage lines typically cost per mile to build? If I had the wealth of Jeff Bezos I would be very tempted to fun it myself! Are there any Cumbrian billionaires around?!

£20m optimistically? If they had a spare £500m they might get somewhere, if they were lucky. What exactly they would do with a private railway I don't know, and if they could get permission to do the disruptive and expensive work of connecting it to the mainline.

 

[BigCj34]

Heritage lines rely on volunteers and most are struggling to get new recruits.

There's are several reasons why Heritage Railways haven't become viable options for public transport use - cost being a prime one, they need to make a profit to develop their offering. They usually aren't able to run services for 12-18 hours a day - they'd need the staffing to do that.

The Lakes already has 2 heritage railways in the Lakeside & Haverthwaite and the Ravenglass & Eskdale plus the Threlkeld Mining Museum - a heritage line would be in direct competition with all of those.

I'm not sure the UK can sustain any more heritage railways.

And there are already buses serving quite alot of the walks. If you introduce a congestion charge casual tourists will go elsewhere - Northumbria, Peak District, Wales etc. It's monumental stupidity to suggest a congestion charge to a tourist destination which has plenty of alternatives.

I meant that tourists could have the option to arrive by heritage rail if they wanted to, but as a leisurely trip. Clearly it would not replace public transport, as heritage lines cannot do that. I would like to think Keswick is far enough from Ravenglass and Lakeside to not abstract their patronage but I would not know for sure. In any case if the track bed has been breached in parts then that makes matters much more difficult.

It is a case where through ticketing on the bus makes much more sense (I do remember buses to Keswick showing on rail journey planners too).

 

[BigCj34]

£20m optimistically? If they had a spare £500m they might get somewhere, if they were lucky. What exactly they would do with a private railway I don't know, and if they could get permission to do the disruptive and expensive work of connecting it to the mainline.

That is comparable to building a mainline then, assuming it uses existing alignments etc.

 

[A0]

I meant that tourists could have the option to arrive by heritage rail if they wanted to, but as a leisurely trip.

Fanciful nonsense.

The Keswick branch if reinstated would be circa 17 miles - using Ipswich - Felixstowe as an example (similar length) you can just about run an hourly service from Penrith to Keswick using a single unit.

That's just about the only viable option for the Keswick branch - bearing in mind the branch would enter Penrith from the south so elaborate suggestions of through trains from Manchester, Preston or anywhere south would necessitate a reversal at Penrith with the associated knock on impact on the northern section of the WCML.

 

[A0]

That is comparable to building a mainline then, assuming it uses existing alignments etc.

Yes, because what is needed here is mainline standard - so as a 'de minimis' you'll be looking at £20m a mile - probably more given bridges etc will need replacing.

So a number of £500m to reinstate is probably a good starting point.

A heritage line might be able to do it cheaper, but you'd be looking at a 30mph line speed and a couple of decades to reinstate it using volunteer labour.

 

[BigCj34]

Fanciful nonsense.

The Keswick branch if reinstated would be circa 17 miles - using Ipswich - Felixstowe as an example (similar length) you can just about run an hourly service from Penrith to Keswick using a single unit.

That's just about the only viable option for the Keswick branch - bearing in mind the branch would enter Penrith from the south so elaborate suggestions of through trains from Manchester, Preston or anywhere south would necessitate a reversal at Penrith with the associated knock on impact on the northern section of the WCML.

From what I remember seeing the proposal was to build it themselves! Unless some if the richest people in the world gave an interest in lost railways in an English national park it's a little tricky by private financing.

 

[Bald Rick]

Aren’t there at least two old threads on this? Nothing has changed since then to affect the business case (whenever it gets done)

I disagree. Keswick is the gateway to the North Lakes. The Lakes are England's most sought after National Park. Keswick is heavily reliant on its income from tourism. The A66 is heavily congested at weekends and on any school holiday days. The A591 into Town is then at a stand still for the last 1-2 miles. The car parking is way over capacity. I was in Lakes last Nov with friends who are residents. We saw that in normal times there is now an all year round tourist season.

This is not my experience. My trips on the A66 from Penrith to Keswick have been mostly by the excellent bus service. All have been in school holidays, some at weekends. There has never been congestion. Perhaps I’m lucky.

The best public transport option here would be to double or quadruple the bus service, make every other one non-stop, and integrate the fares to the rail network. Far more frequent and therefore better connections, takes passengers to where they want to get to (Keswick town centre, and not a station a few hundred metres away; with the option the other end of Penrith town centre as well as the station), cheaper to operate than an hourly rail service (lots), better for the environment, and saves at least half a billion of taxpayers’ money. It could also be done in 6 months, rather than waiting for a decade. I can’t see how anyone can argue otherwise with a straight face.

 

[A0]

I can’t see how anyone can argue otherwise with a straight face.

Come, come - you've been posting around here long enough to know that this is Railforums and therefore anything other than at the very least full heavy rail route with a service provided with full loco hauled stock is clearly inferior, not fit for purpose or simply the rail industry deliberately making everything too expensive.

As ever, you're right though.

 

[Meole]

How long has there been a dual carriageway to Keswick as stated above, last time I drove from Penrith it was single by Troutbeck ?

 

[Bald Rick]

How long has there been a dual carriageway to Keswick as stated above, last time I drove from Penrith it was single by Troutbeck ?

It is indeed single carriageway west of Penruddock. However, it is a modern road, rebuilt to decent highway standards. Great sight.ines and plenty of overtaking space.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Absolutely, it is a shame that the bus service, as good as it is, does not appear on rail journey planners with through fares and proper, advertised connections - a missed marketing opportunity

Even the Welsh who have a now quite large tendered, State controlled bus network (Traws) are not doing this.

It is absolutely barking mad, and it just strikes me that in the UK we are just utterly incapable of thinking of public transport as one entity and properly integrating it, which is just criminal, really. The bus is high quality (Stagecoach Gold standard, so more comfortable than the Pendolino or Voyager you likely just got off), frequent (half hourly I think) and stops literally right outside the station. It used to be marketed as a RailLinks service but no longer. Get it in the timetable, and make Keswick a "virtual station" like Luton Airport.

It's no great faff paying for it separately (contactless is accepted) nor is it expensive (I forget, but when I did use it I recall being surprised at the price being much lower than expected, as the South Lakes Stagey services are excellent but expensive), but without people getting it coming up when typing Keswick into nationalrail.co.uk it just won't work that way.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The whole of the Lakes needs to up its game for buses, possibly even having a congestion charge. More obscure mountain walks would still require car usage but those just going to see the sights and have the odd low level walk should easily be catered for with buses.

The Lakes bus network is surprisingly good and really well promoted (if a little pricey at times) - give it a go - you will be surprised at just how good it is, and it certainly does cater for what you suggest (including, by way of the infrequent but still usefully timed Langdale Rambler, some "obscure mountain walks" though obviously not all of them and there are sizeable gaps). There are large gaps in coverage (particularly west of Windermere) but it is really not bad and mostly commercial, I believe. Also while it's not promoted it has through ticketing across connections (I only found out when a driver offered it to me having asked where I was planning to end up!)

Route map if you're interested: https://tiscon-maps-stagecoachbus.s...umbria/The Lakes by Bus - Map Winter 0919.pdf

It's North Wales that needs its game upping, that really is very poor for an area that is very easy to serve because there are very few roads to need to run the buses down!

The one thing I think that really lets it down is the lack of decent bus stations, rather than building this railway I'd build some staffed (in summer), full-service bus stations in Ambleside (stick it on the car park behind the present stops, there's plenty of room), possibly Grasmere (again, there's a decent sized car park it could be plonked on part of, or the field next to it), Keswick and Windermere (could be done alongside the full redevelopment of the station perhaps rather than the present slightly poshed up tin shack?), and possibly a few others.

As for congestion on the A66, I've never seen it congested, but if it is just plonk some bus lanes down, it's dualled for most of its length.

TBH, building this railway now would make about as much sense as building the Conwy Valley now (though I'll admit it probably wouldn't wash away *quite* as often). As others have said I wouldn't close it if it was open, but opening a new one is a rather different case.

 

[Bald Rick]

Even the Welsh who have a now quite large tendered, State controlled bus network (Traws) are not doing this.

It is absolutely barking mad, and it just strikes me that in the UK we are just utterly incapable of thinking of public transport as one entity and properly integrating it, which is just criminal, really. The bus is high quality (Stagecoach Gold standard, so more comfortable than the Pendolino or Voyager you likely just got off), frequent (half hourly I think) and stops literally right outside the station. It used to be marketed as a RailLinks service but no longer. Get it in the timetable, and make Keswick a "virtual station" like Luton Airport.

It's no great faff paying for it separately (contactless is accepted) nor is it expensive (I forget, but when I did use it I recall being surprised at the price being much lower than expected, as the South Lakes Stagey services are excellent but expensive), but without people getting it coming up when typing Keswick into nationalrail.co.uk it just won't work that way.

Well said. I would tentatively suggest that it would cost less to put Keswick on the national rail database and offer through fares than it would to do an initial Strategic Outline Business Case for the rail line.