Changes to industry arrangements for cancelled trains

[ainsworth74]

I've heard on the grapevine that there is coming down the track some sort of code of practice (or similar sort of thing) regarding passengers rights when their train is cancelled.

I'm lead to believe that it intends to clarify that passengers with a cancelled train can catch either two trains before or two trains after there cancelled train (with some provision for flexibility in cases of infrequent services, including the option to travel on the same day the following week!). It appears that there's some clarification around your rights when using different types of tickets as well with the implication I took being that if, for instance, the last off-peak train before the evening peak was cancelled then you'd be able to use the following two services with an off-peak ticket even though they might usually be barred on your ticket type. It also made clear that split tickets also being covered by this (though requiring you to stick to operator or route restrictions imposed by the splitting). This appears to apply to things that are cancelled more than 48 hours in advance (so I would guess strike action for instance or if there's a big weather event known about in advance) as well as things that happen at shorter notice.

There's also been a big push, it seems, behind the scenes to improve the provision of information about cancellations so that retailers can contact their customers when changes occur 48 hours in advance or more to inform them of the change and then provide them with a clear indication of what their alternative trains will be. It's also made clear that even if you're not contacted in advance your rights remain the same as someone who is!

There was quite a lot more to it but the big take away that stood out to me was that clarification that it's up to two before or two after the booked train.

If anyone happened to have a full copy of the document then my forum inbox is always open to anyone who might trip and accidently send a copy to me...

 

[HarryF]

The two trains before and two trains after thing is something LNER have been advertising in the last couple of days when they’ve either cancelled or terminated a train short of its destination. I did wonder if this was a new policy being implemented.

 

[Wallsendmag]

It's a national policy apparently, started on Sunday

 

[infobleep]

It's a national policy apparently, started on Sunday

I'm surprised it's not being promoted more widely as it's a good news story for the railways.

Inwonder if fhere are any exemptions that apply. For example an open operator train is cancelled or the reverse.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

Inwonder if fhere are any exemptions that apply. For example an open operator train is cancelled or the reverse.

I had an Advance on a service from Harrogate to Kings Cross which was cancelled. I was advised at Harrogate to catch the next Northern service to York rather than Leeds. The crew on the Northern service knew about the cancellation. At York though there was a Grand Central service non-stop to Kings Cross followed a few minutes later with a LNER service with a couple of stops. What would have happened if I had boarded the Grand Central service? In the event I waited for the LNER service which didn't have a ticket inspection anyway.

 

[ainsworth74]

What would have happened if I had boarded the Grand Central service? In the event I waited for the LNER service which didn't have a ticket inspection anyway.

If ticket acceptance wasn't agreed you'd have to buy a new York to London ticket on the Grand Central. Which I think would be the same even with this new(ish) approach.

 

[infobleep]

If ticket acceptance wasn't agreed you'd have to buy a new York to London ticket on the Grand Central. Which I think would be the same even with this new(ish) approach.

If there will still need to be ticket acceptance in place before anyone can make use of catching the next 2 services?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Aug 2024 ==

If ticket acceptance wasn't agreed you'd have to buy a new York to London ticket on the Grand Central. Which I think would be the same even with this new(ish) approach.

If there will still need to be ticket acceptance in place before anyone can make use of catching the next 2 services?

I only wrote one post so not sure how that ended up appearing twice.

 

[jamiearmley]

It's a national policy apparently, started on Sunday

Well it would be nice if onboard Crews were briefed on it!

To be fair in the event of cancellations, most people ( including me) are pragmatic - however.......

 

[Haywain]

If there will still need to be ticket acceptance in place before anyone can make use of catching the next 2 services?

No, as it probably means the next two services of the same operator.

 

[ainsworth74]

No, as it probably means the next two services of the same operator.

That would be my interpretation, but I've not had sight of the actual document.

 

[Wallsendmag]

All services before or after must be appropriate to your ticket

 

[Watershed]

All services before or after must be appropriate to your ticket

Which makes the CoP next to useless for a significant number of people. Grand Central train cancelled? Great news! You can travel 2 or 5 hours earlier, or 3 or 5 hours later. But not half an hour before or after.

The industry seems to have no intention whatsoever of complying with the PRO re-routing requirement. It pays mere lip service to it in the NRCoT but does nothing to actually translate that vague phrase ("arrangements will be made") into reality.

The new CoP may also be taken by some staff/companies to mean that this is the extent of your PRO rights, which absolutely isn't the case.

Very disappointing, though quite unsurprising.

 

[HarryF]

My only concern with this new guidance is communication. Quite often, if I am on a train following a cancelled one, the announcements made by the train manager often state that tickets must be for this train and not any other. This has caused some passengers to panic and try and find a staff member. Hopefully communication will be improved

 

[Wallsendmag]

The next version of the NRCoT will include the info

 

[MrJeeves]

The next version of the NRCoT will include the info

Oh, fantastic! My near-meaningless rights will now be formally encoded in the document containing countless already-near-meaningless rights!

 

[MarlowDonkey]

Which makes the CoP next to useless for a significant number of people. Grand Central train cancelled? Great news! You can travel 2 or 5 hours earlier, or 3 or 5 hours later. But not half an hour before or after.

That makes it a risky business buying a ticket restricted to an infrequent operator if you aren't prepared to be delayed several hours. In compensation Open Acess operator tickets are usually cheaper.

 

[OscarH]

Do these changes state how the 2 trains before or after rule apply with connections, or has this been designed with the fanciful idea that a journey is almost always only a direct train

 

[MrJeeves]

That makes it a risky business buying a ticket restricted to an infrequent operator if you aren't prepared to be delayed several hours. In compensation Open Acess operator tickets are usually cheaper.

In reality, you should exercise your rights under the PRO in order to get re-routed, but that relies on someone having the funds to just go out and buy a new ticket for the next train, and then wait while they try to claw the money back from the TOC.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Aug 2024 ==

Do these changes state how the 2 trains before or after rule apply with connections, or has this been designed with the fanciful idea that a journey is almost always only a direct train

One can only imagine RDG have chosen the most passenger-friendly choice here, surely? They wouldn't use this opportunity to create a code of practice only to throw large numbers of passengers into even-greyer-areas than they already were?

 

[OscarH]

One can only imagine RDG have chosen the most passenger-friendly choice here, surely? They wouldn't use this opportunity to create a code of practice only to throw large numbers of passengers into even-greyer-areas than they already were?

Indeed, it would make this presumably expensive exercise pretty pointless if as soon as your journey has multiple legs you're relying on "optional principles" and operator goodwill, exactly as it is now

 

[CyrusWuff]

My understanding is that the new Code of Practice only officially applies where customers have purchased a ticket online in advance of travel and have received a notification of a change to the timetable from the retailer.

Customer advice being to have the notification available to show to ticket examining staff in the event of a query.

It's entirely possible that TOCs will extend the arrangements to customers who've bought tickets through other channels, for the sake of simplicity and consistency, however.

More flexibility is recommended where an infrequent service is involved, which could include requesting ticket acceptance from another TOC where a customer holds an Operator-specific ticket.

There's been no RDG Staff Brief on the subject, however. It's been left to individual TOCs to produce their own.

 

[MrJeeves]

My understanding is that the new Code of Practice only officially applies where customers have purchased a ticket online in advance of travel and have received a notification of a change to the timetable from the retailer.

I believe it also applies where customers cannot be proactively informed about any changes because contact details are unavailable, which I have no idea how you would police...

 

[FaresGuru22]

Do these changes state how the 2 trains before or after rule apply with connections, or has this been designed with the fanciful idea that a journey is almost always only a direct train

Yes, it will cover multi-train journeys. But communication needs to make this clear, and the focus is usually on direct trains so I expect lots of comms will be absolute turd soup.

The principle is figure out your cancelled leg, i.e. re-plan it, then re-plan the rest around it, both before and after if that's the case. Not very easy to communicate or understand. Welcome to UK rail!

 

[Blindtraveler]

Well, this is just rubbish for several reasons. Not least that it seems to accept that for the foreseeable future, operators are going to pre-cancel and delete services from the timetable all over the joint and ultimately the passenger suffers, and I really wish in the new updated guidelines due soon that they would clarify the position for what happens if your last train of the night is delayed or cancelled and you therefore are unable to complete your journey without the assistance of the Railway at. I've had a couple of fairly stormy arguments with Avanti about this in the last 18 months and can see another one looming later in the autumn unless I can find a viable alternative to one of their services 6

 

[MrJeeves]

Yes, it will cover multi-train journeys.

I don't think any part of the CoP makes that explicit.

 

[FaresGuru22]

I don't think any part of the CoP makes that explicit.

Perhaps it will be clearer when a new NRCoT comes out! Y'know, any time in the next 12m.. not an important change or anything!

 

[OscarH]

Perhaps it will be clearer when a new NRCoT comes out! Y'know, any time in the next 12m.. not an important change or anything!

I'll believe the wording will be better when I see it! Based on the wording of internal docs for this change, and the existing poor wording of the NRCoT I'm not hopeful

 

[ThisIsSurbiton]

My understanding is that the new Code of Practice only officially applies where customers have purchased a ticket online in advance of travel and have received a notification of a change to the timetable from the retailer.

That's right - it doesn't automatically apply to cancellations on the day, only timetable changes. Some TOCs have already said that they will use the same rules on the day as well. Another chance to simplify and clarify the rules seems to have been missed, if they are all allowed to do their own thing, and there needs to be clarification about an off-peak fare that now needs to be used in the peak. I don't believe any TOC expects people to wait a few hours and again some have said explicitly that they don't, but this central guidance was the place to say it

 

[swt_passenger]

Which makes the CoP next to useless for a significant number of people. Grand Central train cancelled? Great news! You can travel 2 or 5 hours earlier, or 3 or 5 hours later. But not half an hour before or after.

That’s the risk you always take with an OA operator. You willingly make that trade off for the lower fare.

I’ve never understood how the PRO can be realistically achieved by OA operators, it’s as though they weren’t thought of at all by whoever drew up the ‘rights’.

 

[AlterEgo]

When is the next NRCoT due to be published?

 

[Adam Williams]

When is the next NRCoT due to be published?

"don't know but hopefully within the next 6 months" was what I heard a few weeks ago.

I never quite understood why changing it seems to be such an ordeal.