Albany Park returns to 4 trains per hour. This must mean one of the Charing Cross services changes pathing and timings. What knock on effects and other changes do we think will happen?
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Changes to SE metro services next June
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Albany Park returns to 4 trains per hour. This must mean one of the Charing Cross services changes pathing and timings. What knock on effects and other changes do we think will happen?
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brad465
Established Member
I don't know the details but I wouldn't be surprised if at least some element of pre-election sweeteners is involved: that tweet coming from the local Tory MP already shows some of that at play, and all the constituencies on the south-east edge of London and NW Kent are Tory held.
I think a full metro recast was needed after services were somewhat awkwardly taken out last year supposedly because of the 'Elizabeth line impact' (and previously due to Covid loadings). But that was never going to happen for December 2023, so instead is May 2024 with some Thameslink retimings expected too.
Peregrine 4903
Established Member
June 24 not May.
Why the discrepancy?
Edit: Ignore me I see its the 2nd June.
According to Steve White on Twitter they’ll be spread more evenly.
Nicholas Lewis
Established Member
Looks like we have a starter for a June 2024 Timetable change thread!
Gravesend to Victoria services returning?
evergreenadam
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Cannon Street to Woolwich services to terminate at Dartford.
Victoria to Dartford via Bexleyheath services to be extended to Gravesend.
Just saw that. No surprise as the North Kent timings are awful.
Not so good to extend the period of the "winter" timetable and delay the start of summer-only services which typically began mid-May and would extend to September.
The timetable change was (almost) always May way back to the early 70s if not before, why delay it to June? A cost-cutting measure to reduce the period that expensive summer-only services run?
On the other hand October is a more sensible time to begin the "winter" timetable as the summer-only services would end then (if not before).
leytongabriel
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Wouldn't the Whitsun half-term school holidays be a good place to start the 'summer ' timetable?
NorthKent1989
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Wasn’t the point of extending more Woolwich trains to Gravesend was so Gravesend & Greenhithe could have 4tph to Abbey Wood for the Elizabeth line? With no sign of the Liz being extended any time soon it’s a backward step.
Judging by how bad the Woolwich line will be going forward I don’t plan on returning to using that line for the foreseeable future, it’s utterly worthless now it’s all City trains, SE have made using their metro services unattractive
Judging by how bad the Woolwich line will be going forward I don’t plan on returning to using that line for the foreseeable future, it’s utterly worthless now it’s all City trains, SE have made using their metro services unattractive
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The SouthEastern and Thameslinks are currently about 5 minutes apart, so not a huge loss if true.
NorthKent1989
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Personally I think it’s high time they removed Thameslink off the Woolwich line, the line has never been the same since it was jammed through the Woolwich line late in the day and haphazardly.
The padding in the timetable to accommodate Thameslink is why journey times are slower on the line.
The Greenwich line used to have 6tph every ten minutes until 2018, what it gets now is a joke of a service.
I personally have given up on SE since last December they have a poor approach on running a service, it seems to be all about what’s operationally convenient for them
Rather than for the paying customer, the Liz line is far from perfect and is often delayed and packed but I’d sooner use that than get on a SE train.
The padding in the timetable to accommodate Thameslink is why journey times are slower on the line.
The Greenwich line used to have 6tph every ten minutes until 2018, what it gets now is a joke of a service.
I personally have given up on SE since last December they have a poor approach on running a service, it seems to be all about what’s operationally convenient for them
Rather than for the paying customer, the Liz line is far from perfect and is often delayed and packed but I’d sooner use that than get on a SE train.
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For passengers like me, the Thameslink service is perfect. I'd hate to see it go.
NorthKent1989
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It’s ridiculously slow, and I think it’s safe to say that if it were a choice between Charing Cross or Thameslink most people in my area and other areas on that line would choose Charing Cross any day of the week.
The choice isn't between Thameslink and Charing Cross; unless there is a timetable change I haven't seen.
Thameslink gets me into St Pancras and SE gets me into Charing Cross. For me, they aren't really comparative because I use them for very different reasons.
Plenty of commuters love the service because it reduces the need to change when going across town. It's the same with the Lizzy line. The destination is far more important than the journey. With the Lizzy it's worse because the planners are now using it for Victoria with a change at Whitechapel.
Maybe I'm strange in that the only thing I really care about is where I get on and where I need to get off. Thameslink fits that need. I was out for Christmas drinks last week and I got a direct service. SE services can't meet my demands.
This side of Kent needs more connections. The "Haykerloo" line is a billion years away and any extension of the Elizabeth line has too many hurdles to overcome. The Lower Thames Crossing can't come soon enough and if a magical genie appeared and granted wishes, we still wouldn't have a connection across 'The River'
Having SE as the exclusive TOC made them lazy. With Thameslink and the Purple one. It's created competition and hopefully SE will react.
NorthKent1989
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The real competition for South Eastern is the Elizabeth line and the DLR, a half hourly slow Thameslink service really is no competition, St. Pancras is far quicker via the Liz line with a change at Farringdon.
I’m in Charlton and I’ve given up on SE completely, Charing Cross trains were far busier than Thameslink trains ever were, peak and off peak in my experience, and I’ve always had bad experiences with Thameslink so I used to avoid it, the EL isn’t perfect but I choose that over Thameslink
Southeastern’s idea of beating off competition from other lines is to reduce services as they’ve done and passed the buck onto neighbouring TfL lines
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I'm further down the line than you are so my options open up. Getting to Websfleet is too painful so HS1 is out the window as an option. That dash up those stairs it a total dramasode.
DLR is never an option as I've always found it more restrictive and I've never been keen on the change at Woolwich.
The Lizzy I've had mixed experiences with. Nothing major and it's very convenient if going into that's side.of the City. Going into Bond Street from Kent was kinda weird but great. A game changer if it came down my end.
TL and Lizzy have changed the travelling habits of us passengers deeper into Kent. They are well used and almost everyone I know prefers the 700s over SE clapped out rust buckets.
Long may they continue.
DLR is never an option as I've always found it more restrictive and I've never been keen on the change at Woolwich.
The Lizzy I've had mixed experiences with. Nothing major and it's very convenient if going into that's side.of the City. Going into Bond Street from Kent was kinda weird but great. A game changer if it came down my end.
TL and Lizzy have changed the travelling habits of us passengers deeper into Kent. They are well used and almost everyone I know prefers the 700s over SE clapped out rust buckets.
Long may they continue.
Hmmmm.... Depending on the election timing it may be jam tomorrow promises....
778
Member
I had quite a long journey in a 465 from Charing Cross - Tunbridge Wells 2 months ago, and found it quite comfortable. It certainly did not seem like a rust bucket to me. It was probably more comfortable than the return journey in a 375, although the return train was busier. I don't get why the 365s are fawned over and the 465s/466s are disliked on this forum, when they are almost the same train.
I hope TFL dont take over the Southeastern Metro routes as that would almost certainly mean new trains with 100% longitudinal seating.
The 700s are ok, but could do with 2 different interiors. One for short distance services and one for longer runs such as Bedford - Brighton, with more comfortable seats and tables.
evergreenadam
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Those hoping for Charing Cross services on the Woolwich line will be disappointed. As I understand it the Thameslink works removed the ability to run trains to Charing Cross via Greenwich. You could only run a Charing Cross service via Blackheath, which then takes up capacity on the junctions at Lewisham. Pre COVID-19 I don’t think there were any slots left through Lewisham in the peaks.
So the choice in terms of London terminals for services via Greenwich is Thameslink or Cannon Street or a mixture of services to both. It comes down to the same compromise as exists elsewhere on SE Metro. You can have a turn up and go metro style service from one London terminal or have a less frequent service from a mix of terminals.
The advantage of replacing the Thameslink services via Greenwich with Cannon Street services would be that you could replace 8 carriage trains with 10 carriage trains. Capacity wise I’m not sure if that makes much difference as Thameslink uses a different type of rolling stock with a different seating layout to the SE Metro services.
So the choice in terms of London terminals for services via Greenwich is Thameslink or Cannon Street or a mixture of services to both. It comes down to the same compromise as exists elsewhere on SE Metro. You can have a turn up and go metro style service from one London terminal or have a less frequent service from a mix of terminals.
The advantage of replacing the Thameslink services via Greenwich with Cannon Street services would be that you could replace 8 carriage trains with 10 carriage trains. Capacity wise I’m not sure if that makes much difference as Thameslink uses a different type of rolling stock with a different seating layout to the SE Metro services.
No the infrastructure exists to do it, otherwise Thameslink wouldn't be able to run that way.
The initial issue was that it caused to many crossing moves across the London Bridge "throat" area post the redevelopment but that was then made null and void when Thameslink was panickedly sent to Rainham after it was realised it couldn't be routed via a stopping East Croydon service.
NorthKent1989
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Youve had a different experience to Thameslink than most I’ve met, most people hate it, and wish for the old Gillingham semi fasts to return, which I must say in light of the EL at Abbey Wood, would be handy, I can’t imagine the all stations Thameslink service being as popular as the old Gillingham semi fasts.
If Thameslink were faster on both sides of the river it would be attractive but it calls at way too many stations for it to ever be useful