Changover vs refund advice

[SherbertLemon]

Hello all,

Thanks to all those who have posted before me; I've used the replies on various threads to try and calculate the expected refund for a straight refund of a season ticket as opposed to a changover between stations that would serve some use. Would somebody be kind enough to confirm if I've got these right, as I was under the impression a changeover always 'wins' but a refund appears to be coming out cheaper?

I purchased an annual season ticket.

BSK - LON season ticket purchase on 13 March 2023, at £4,997
NSH - LON season ticket is currently £1,280 - I've taken the 5.9% fare increase off for the calculations (so, £1,204)

Changover

• I believe the base rate is the ticket price, divided by 365?
  • BSK - LON = £13.69
  • NSH - LON = £3.30
• 92 days have been used, leaving 273 remaining
  • 273 x £13.69 = £3,373.73
  • 273 x £3.30 = £900.90

Refund due = £2,836.47

Refund
Assuming I refunded tomorrow, this falls nicely into three exact months of use

• BSK - LON monthly today £508.10, less 5.9%, so assuming it was £478.12 per month which is roughly correct from memory
• £478.12 x 3 = £1,434.36
• £4,997 - £1,434.36 = £3,562.64
• Less £10 admin charge

Refund due = £3,552.64

Have I got these figures completely wrong, or am I better off refunding rather than requesting a changeover? Sincere thanks in advance.

 

[island]

Checking NFM44, an annual from North Sheen to London Terminals issued on 13•MCH•23 would have cost £1,180 and one from Basingstoke would have cost £5,340 (£5,292 route via Woking).

As such I do not recognise the prices you are quoting above. If you can clarify where you have obtained these prices, I will check the calculations.

I was under the impression a changeover always 'wins' but a refund appears to be coming out cheaper?

I am not sure what gave you this impression, but as a starting point, naively one would expect a changeover, which leaves you with a ticket you can still use, to refund less than a refund, which doesn't. The main exception arises when there is a relatively short period left on the ticket, because for refunds, the value of the ticket is divided over (approximately) ten and a half months, with one and a half months free at the end, so you don't get a refund for the "free" months. This is less applicable here as you are only three months and one day into the validity of your ticket. Also, many of the scenarios where people use a changeover as a refund involve changing to extremely short journeys such as Hatton to Lapworth or Exeter St Davids to Central, as opposed to a journey that is still usable.

 

[SherbertLemon]

Thanks for much for taking a look. The BSK-LON price is the season ticket price I paid, so happy that is correct (the via Woking route).

NSH-LON was based on the current season ticket price from the National Rail calculator, minus the 5.9% increase this year - so, not scientific and just an attempt to reflect the prices involved wouldn’t be as high as today.

 

[Watershed]

If what you effectively want is a refund, you're better off getting a changeover to the cheapest available season ticket - which remains Hatton to Lapworth for the time being. The reason a refund is working out better here is that you are keeping a season ticket which costs around £1000 a year.

Incidentally, if you do a changeover as mentioned above, you can still refund the new season. If you don't want a season ticket anymore, this will extract the maximum possible "refund".

 

[SherbertLemon]

Thanks @Watershed, I figured the TOC would raise eyebrows if they thought the request wasn’t genuine (ie: to maximise the refund, rather than circumstances changing)?

Any experience of SWR’s approach?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thanks @Watershed, I figured the TOC would raise eyebrows if they thought the request wasn’t genuine (ie: to maximise the refund, rather than circumstances changing)?

Any experience of SWR’s approach?

It's not breaking any rules to do this that I know of, but it is very likely that some staff will be awkward about it.

 

[island]

Thanks for much for taking a look. The BSK-LON price is the season ticket price I paid, so happy that is correct (the via Woking route).

Annual adult season tickets are only priced in multiples of £4 so I'm at a loss as to how one might have cost £4,997.

Nevertheless, if you were to refund tomorrow an annual Basingstoke to London Terminals ticket valid from 13•MCH•23 to 12•MCH•24, the deduction made would be the value of a 3 month 2 day season ticket which is £1,558.50, not £1,434.36. If your ticket was issued with some sort of custom discount, then all bets are off.

The rest of your calculation, other than the price of the North Sheen ticket, seems valid.

edited to add: miscounted the days, it is 3 months not 3 months 2 days. Correct calculation at the bottom.

 

[Watershed]

Thanks @Watershed, I figured the TOC would raise eyebrows if they thought the request wasn’t genuine (ie: to maximise the refund, rather than circumstances changing)?

Any experience of SWR’s approach?

It doesn't matter whether they consider the refund request genuine or not - it's your contractual entitlement to get a changeover to a cheaper season and get a (broadly) pro-rata refund of the difference, and then to refund that new season ticket.

Staff can get suspicious all they like. The main thing is that you make your request as soon as you can - each additional day will lose you money on your refund. If staff refuse to perform the changeover or refund, or give you less of a refund than you're entitled to, you can always take that up later.

 

[SherbertLemon]

Annual adult season tickets are only priced in multiples of £4 so I'm at a loss as to how one might have cost £4,997.

Oops, there was £1 delivery fee. The ticket was £4,996. Apologies for the error.

 

[Hadders]

Hatton to Lapworth is the cheapest Annual Season ticket that has Gold Card status which you might find useful.
I believe Dockyard to Devonport is the cheapest Annual Season available.

 

[island]

£4,996 was the price of an annual season ticket from Basingstoke to London Terminals route via Woking in NFM43. The last date a ticket could have been issued at this price was 28•FBY•23 and the last date a paper season ticket at this price could have started was 07•MCH•23. A smartcard season might have started later.

For that ticket, the weekly equivalent is £124.90. The multiplier for 3m (from the internal knowledge base) is 11.52. That gives a 3m price of £1,438.90. So if the theoretical annual ticket were to be surrendered for a refund today, the refund would be the difference between those two prices, less £10 admin fee, equalling £3,547.10.

If obtaining a changeover to North Sheen to London Terminals, the annual price is £1,180 and the daily rate is £3.23. Ticket held is £4,996 with daily rate £13.69. 92 days used at £13.69 = £1,273.17. Residual value £3,722.83. New ticket is 273 days at £3.23 = £881.79. £2,841.04 to be repaid to customer.

If you do not have further use for the ticket, changing over to Hatton to Lapworth would give a refund of £3,586.33 by my reckoning (annual price £184, daily rate £0.50), and keeps your Gold Card too.

Caveats apply:

• Calculation methods vary between train companies, particularly as to when and how they round off.
• If your ticket is held on a smartcard, you will need to get the changeover/refund from the company that issued the smartcard. If it's a paper ticket, refund comes from the issuer but a changeover can (theoretically) be done at another TOC.
• If your ticket is a paper ticket, the fact it's been issued at the old price to start 13 days after the price change could cause complication.
• It's also quite possible that when calculating the changeover, they will inadvertently mix old and new fares. You should be alert to this.

 

[SherbertLemon]

Thank you sincerely to all for their help. It’s very much appreciated.