Charged with Penalty Fare - But I Paid...

[workingkadir12]

Hello everyone, first time poster here. I have tried to read through relevant forum posts but seems my case is a bit different (and ironic). Please find my situation below:

• Yesterday, I tapped in using Apple Pay (Credit Card) at Greenwich station to board my train towards Lewisham.
• Upon arriving at Lewisham, I did not see any officers standing next to the machine immediately, unlike how they are typically stationed at other train stations to check the tickets.
• Naturally, I tap out using Apple Pay (same method) at the nearest machine, and walked towards the direction of Lewisham High Street Market.
• At this point, I can honestly confirm that I successfully tapped out at both stations - this means that I have paid for my journey.
• While waiting for Google Maps to load, I was stopped by a TfL Officer, who was positioned at the staircase about 5m away.
• The officer me that I did not get checked by him before tapping out, and he is catching me "for not paying my fare".
• I am currently waiting for the TFL Charge to appear on my bank statement / mobile app, and use the appeal process to explain my case.
• I was calm throughout and polite in making my case, but unfortunately the officer was waiving me off, almost taunting me saying "You look like you knew what you were doing".
• The officer also kept saying "you have a right to appeal", as if he was trying to just rack up numbers or something (sorry, I really do not want to come across negative but this process has shaken me up quite a lot because I paid yet feel like I am being accused of not paying...)
• I have registered on the TFL Appeal website and can see my case details.

Currently, my ticket shows: Reason for Issue: "No ticket or pass".

In summary, I paid my fare but because the officer did not "check" my card before I tapped on the machine, I have been accused of fare evasion.

My question to everyone is:

1. Assuming I send an appeal with in the next 3 days (as I'm still waiting for the TFL Charge to appear on my bank statement / bank app), do I need to do anything else to make sure that I do not be seen as "not paying"? I read on this forum that people have been charged the full £100 instead of £50 because they did not pay the fare upfront.
2. Has anyone had such an experience with a successful appeal where the penalty fare is waived, meaning they gave you the ticket for you to pay within 21 days, and revoked the fare because they deemed your appeal to be correct?
3. I have drafted my appeal letter and made it as respectful and factual as possible. Do you think it's worth contacting Free Legal Help Clinics for additional support on this?

Any additional advice while I wait for things to happen (TFL charge on bank statement + appeal process) would be greatly appreciated...

Sorry again to keep mentioning this, but I feel shaken by this and always make sure to pay my fare to avoid things like this.

Thank you so much in advance to anyone who reads and responds to my situation.

 

[gabrielhj07]

How long does it normally take for transactions to appear on your bank app, and does it show it in your Apple wallet?

 

[alholmes]

Have you registered your card on the TfL website? If not, do that - you will then be able to check your journey history online, which will give precise times and locations at where you’ve tapped in and out. That’s better than a bank statement which will just show a single total for each day.

link to create an account here: https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/

 

[furlong]

Register directly on the TfL website (or the app) and it should show you all your taps. (Alternatively phone the TfL helpdesk to obtain all the relevant information.)

Did the officer tap your card (phone?) at all? If so, confirm this was after touching out?

 

[workingkadir12]

Hello everyone, thanks for your responses. I'm responding here:

@gabrielhj07 - Usually 2 days as it is a credit card.

@alholmes & @furlong - Thanks so much for this information. The officer approached me after I tapped out, made no attempt to tap my phone, just brought me to one side and the mini-episode began...

Update:

• Just created an account, linked my card and the journey details are showing.

I will keep everyone posted on the result. Really appreciate the super quick replies!

 

[Haywain]

Thank you so much in advance to anyone who reads and responds to my situation.

As I understand your post, you have been issued a Penalty Fare Notice (PFN). This gives you a right to appeal, as the officer correctly advised you and it seems that you have valid grounds for appeal, especially if the time the PFN was issued is later than the touch-out recorded on your TfL account (if the times are the opposite way round you may be on rougher ground). I think it would help with providing advice if you could post a copy of the PFN and your journey history, with personal details redacted.

 

[workingkadir12]

Hello @Haywain , thanks for clarifying that it was a PFN, as I was not asked to pay on the spot.

My journey ended at 09:10 (based on TfL website) and PFN was issued 09:13, which is correct as I was stopped by the officer after tapping out and about to leave the DLR station.

Much appreciated - my next step now is to lodge the appeal and hopefully get this resolved.

 

[Haywain]

thanks for clarifying that it was a PFN,

As I said, that's an assumption. Please post a copy so that we can assist further.

 

[workingkadir12]

Sorry, my misunderstanding. Attaching both below (and just realised it was 09:05 not 09:10 when my journey ended).

 

[furlong]

Something doesn't add up here. The person issuing a Penalty Fare has to follow certain procedures. Either you've not told us some key piece of information, or those procedures were not followed and in addition to an appeal you should be making a formal complaint against the conduct of the person who issued it.

 

[workingkadir12]

Hello @furlong , thanks for your input and sorry for the confusion caused. Unfortunately, I believe I have told you everything I can remember.

In my appeal, I have thought about quoting something along the lines of "The officer did not practice 'applying discretion' and just rushed me to accept the notice".

Sharing more about it: It was a very weird situation, as there were a few officers: the main officer who was taking my details, his manager advising the main officer that "I (me) knew what I was doing, so I'm trying to sneak past them" and a TFL officer (dressed differently) who was just quietly nodding and telling me to appeal.

Weirdly, everything was caught on the officer's camera as well because it was green.

I have thought about writing back regarding my experience, but I am thinking that I should get confirmation that everything is good first, as I don't want to stir up things unnecessarily.

Thanks again for your thoughts.

 

[AlterEgo]

Hello @furlong , thanks for your input and sorry for the confusion caused. Unfortunately, I believe I have told you everything I can remember.

In my appeal, I have thought about quoting something along the lines of "The officer did not practice 'applying discretion' and just rushed me to accept the notice".

Sharing more about it: It was a very weird situation, as there were a few officers: the main officer who was taking my details, his manager advising the main officer that "I (me) knew what I was doing, so I'm trying to sneak past them" and a TFL officer (dressed differently) who was just quietly nodding and telling me to appeal.

Weirdly, everything was caught on the officer's camera as well because it was green.

I have thought about writing back regarding my experience, but I am thinking that I should get confirmation that everything is good first, as I don't want to stir up things unnecessarily.

Thanks again for your thoughts.

There is no discretion here - you paid for your fare, and tapped out, and they did not even check to see if that was the case.

 

[furlong]

Then you need to ask them for a copy of the video recording ASAP - before they have chance to "lose" it.

Unless there's something else you haven't told us - and I have to keep saying that because I find this story extremely difficult to believe - what you've described would amount to serious misconduct - an abuse of position which brings TfL into disrepute and ought to lead to disciplinary action against one or more of the people involved and their potential prosecution and dismissal.

In its policy document, TfL describes a Penalty Fare Notice as follows:
"A Penalty Fare Notice is issued when a passenger travelling on a TfL service fails to produce on demand a valid travel mandate when required to do so by an authorised person."

If you were never asked to present your ticket (contactless card etc.) then a Penalty Fare cannot be imposed on you. This is such a basic principle that it's hard to believe how any "authorised person" could ever neglect to do it.

 

[Haywain]

Unless there's something else you haven't told us - and I have to keep saying that because I find this story extremely difficult to believe - what you've described would amount to serious misconduct - an abuse of position which brings TfL into disrepute and ought to lead to disciplinary action against one or more of the people involved and their potential prosecution and dismissal.

Can we just concentrate on helping the OP with an appeal and not get hung up on these hypotheticals?

 

[furlong]

Can we just concentrate on helping the OP with an appeal and not get hung up on these hypotheticals?

The issue is that if there is some withheld information about what actually happened, that could have a crucial effect on the appeal.

 

[alholmes]

I think the evidence you’ve provided from the journey history on the TfL website is very clear - you had a valid ticket for the journey in question. Should be very easy to win the appeal and cancel the penalty fare.

 

[furlong]

I would suggest quoting that sentence anyway as the core of the appeal. Not asked to present my ticket so no PF could be imposed - and here's a copy of my ticket now, which I could also have shown then had I been asked. (I'm just wondering if there was some way they were asked to present their ticket earlier on but were perceived to have barged through and ignored the request or something similar, perhaps wearing headphones.)

 

[workingkadir12]

(I'm just wondering if there was some way they were asked to present their ticket earlier on but were perceived to have barged through and ignored the request or something similar, perhaps wearing headphones.)

Hello everyone, to clarify and hopefully reduce any more confusion, I was not wearing earphones and was not asked to present a ticket. This is why I went ahead and tapped out.

Had I been asked, I would have complied as I did pay for my fare.

Upon exiting the DLR, the officers were on the right, closer to the steps towards the exit of the station, which is outside of my immediate view.

I have seen officers usually standing near the machines when I get off on other DLR stations (Deptford Bridge, Canary Wharf, etc), and naturally I would tap with them first before tapping out at the machine.

To be honest, I did feel a bit bullied by the officers when the whole process was taking place. However, I do not want to wrongly say they were intentionally doing something they were not supposed to.

My first priority is to successfully appeal the "PFN" then consider other actions if it comes to it.

Appreciate your thoughts on this thread so far @AlterEgo , @furlong , @Haywain & @alholmes.

 

[AdamWW]

I would suggest quoting that sentence anyway as the core of the appeal. Not asked to present my ticket so no PF could be imposed - and here's a copy of my ticket now, which I could also have shown then had I been asked. (I'm just wondering if there was some way they were asked to present their ticket earlier on but were perceived to have barged through and ignored the request or something similar, perhaps wearing headphones.)

If a passenger had failed to tap in, would tapping out just generate a maximum fare charge and a subsequent revenue scan be unable to distinguish between that and someone who had both tapped in and out?

If so I can see the interest in getting to someone before tapping out. I'm not sure though that having failed to so do, one can then assert that the passenger didn't have a valid ticket.

 

[alholmes]

The layout of the card readers at Lewisham is very different to most DLR stations, as you’ve already identified. At most DLR stations the inspectors are able to stand just before the card readers, so they can check tickets before passengers tap out. That’s not so easy to achieve at Lewisham as there are the two exits, and card readers are mid-way along the platform.

But that’s not really relevant to the appeal.

You have the evidence that you tapped in at 09.00 at your originating station and tapped out at Lewisham at 09.05, which corresponds with a penalty being issued a few minutes later at 09.13. I’d just stick to that in your appeal.

Threads on this forum have a habit of being sidetracked down cul-de-sacs, which whilst being interesting to some people don’t necessarily help the OP deal with the situation they are in.

 

[workingkadir12]

Hi everyone, just sharing the key contents of appeal letter just for anyone to proofread if you have a minute to spare:

• Upon arrival at Lewisham station, I tapped out at the nearest machine and proceeded towards Lewisham High Street Market.
• I was then approached by a TfL officer who informed me that I had not had my ticket checked before tapping out.
• I did not see the officers stationed near the tapping machines, and just proceeded to tap out.
• I understand the officer’s perspective that my fare might not have been verified due to the lack of a manual check. However, I assure you that I paid for my trip, as evidenced by the attached PDF from my TFL Account, which shows the charge for a single trip fare (£1.90) on 05/06/2024.
• The officer’s decision to issue a penalty fare without applying discretion does not align with the train company's discretion guidelines and penalty fare rules.
• I was cooperative and polite during my interaction with the officer.
• The Penalty Fare notice was issued at 09:13 while my tap out was 09:05.

Planning to send this out tomorrow just to ensure I can look at it one more time.

Thanks @alholmes and everyone again for your input and time.

 

[AlterEgo]

I'm still not understanding. Why are you talking about discretion? Your assertion is that you had a valid ticket, and the inspector did not even check this.

Where does discretion come into this?

 

[LondonExile]

Hi everyone, just sharing the key contents of appeal letter just for anyone to proofread if you have a minute to spare:

• Upon arrival at Lewisham station, I tapped out at the nearest machine and proceeded towards Lewisham High Street Market.
• I was then approached by a TfL officer who informed me that I had not had my ticket checked before tapping out.
• I did not see the officers stationed near the tapping machines, and just proceeded to tap out.
• I understand the officer’s perspective that my fare might not have been verified due to the lack of a manual check. However, I assure you that I paid for my trip, as evidenced by the attached PDF from my TFL Account, which shows the charge for a single trip fare (£1.90) on 05/06/2024.
• The officer’s decision to issue a penalty fare without applying discretion does not align with the train company's discretion guidelines and penalty fare rules.
• I was cooperative and polite during my interaction with the officer.
• The Penalty Fare notice was issued at 09:13 while my tap out was 09:05.

Planning to send this out tomorrow just to ensure I can look at it one more time.

Thanks @alholmes and everyone again for your input and time.

I'd say this could read somewhat confusingly, as it could also apply to someone trying to cheat the system (no tap-in, tap-out on contactless for maximum fare once you realise there's a revenue block in place.)

I'd phrase it more like this:

On Wednesday 5th June 2024, I travelled from Greenwich to Lewisham via the DLR.
I tapped in at Greenwich at 09:00 with my Apple Pay, and tapped out at Lewisham at 09:05 with the same device. I have been charged £1.90 as expected for this journey. Please see attached the screenshot showing this journey.

As I was attempting to leave Lewisham station, I was approached by a TfL member of staff, who issued me with a penalty fare (reference number #....). At no point was I asked to show my ticket or contactless payment, the office simply moved straight to issuing a Penalty Fare.

As I have attached the proof that I had a valid ticket for travel, and was given no opportunity to show this to the staff member at the time, I am formally appealing the Penalty Fare on these grounds.

 

[alholmes]

Looks ok as a structure. Probably worth swapping points 2 and 3 around, so you first state you tapped out, followed by being stopped. Also, saying where you were stopped (e.g. I walked xx metres from the card reader and was then stopped…).

On the point where you said you tapped out, were there any officers beside the card readers. If there weren’t, then say so. As you’ve worded it so far, it implies there may have been officers there but you didn’t see them.

and as @AlterEgo says, drop the point about discretion. It’s irrelevant and potentially confuses things.

 

[workingkadir12]

Thank you for your feedback so far. Will respond to each question:

I'm still not understanding. Why are you talking about discretion? Your assertion is that you had a valid ticket, and the inspector did not even check this.

Where does discretion come into this?

I was trying to point out that the officer did not use "discretion" when assessing my situation. I was just told that I didn't pay and was not listened to at all. If this confuses things, I can omit this section to avoid confusion.

I'd say this could read somewhat confusingly, as it could also apply to someone trying to cheat the system (no tap-in, tap-out on contactless for maximum fare once you realise there's a revenue block in place.)

Looks ok as a structure. Probably worth swapping points 2 and 3 around, so you first state you tapped out, followed by being stopped.

Thank you for all your feedback @AlterEgo , @LondonExile and @alholmes! Writing the redraft now...

 

[johnny_t]

I think you've got too many words in your description, as your case seems very straightforward. All you need to say is a direct timeline of events, namely....


I travelled from xxxxx to Lewisham, tapping in at 09.00 and tapping out at 09.05
After tapping out, I was approached by a TfL officer. Without checking my payment method, they issued me a penalty fare at 09.13

I am attaching my payment record and the PFN. As you can see, this has clearly been issued in error. Please confirm this and cancel the charge.




I would then be tempted to go on to make a formal complaint, but it sounds like you want to deal with it one step at a time.

 

[workingkadir12]

I think you've got too many words in your description, as your case seems very straightforward. All you need to say is a direct timeline of events, namely....

Thank you - updated everything below including everyone's comments:

• On June 5th, 2024 morning, between 09:00 and 09:05 am, I tapped in at Greenwich DLR station using my Apple Pay Credit Card (ending in XXXX).
• Upon exiting the train at Lewisham station, I did not see any officers stationed near the tapping machines, and just proceeded to tap out with the same Apple Pay device.
• I have been charged £1.90 as expected for this single fare trip - please see attached PDF from my TFL account that shows this journey.
• After taking several steps in the direction of the Lewisham High Street Market, while using Google Maps on my phone, I was then approached by a TfL staff member (XXXX), who issued me with a penalty fare (PF No XXXX).
• This penalty fare notice was issued at 09:13am while my tap out was 09:05am.
• At no point was I asked to show my ticket or contactless payment. I was only told that I did not have my ticket checked before tapping out, and the staff member moved straight to issuing me a penalty fare.
• However, given that I have attached proof that I had a valid ticket for travel, and was given no opportunity to show this to the staff at the time, I respectfully request that the penalty fare be waived in light of this information.
• I am confident that a review of the evidence will demonstrate that I acted in good faith and complied with the fare regulations.

Hope this has incorporated everyone's very helpful feedback. Thank you everyone for your support thus far!

 

[furlong]

It's still too much. Cut out ALL the irrelevant information! Don't include what amounts to "commentary" and you aren't "requesting" them to "waive" it! You're saying it wasn't issued in accordance with the rules!
"between 09:00 and 09:05am I tapped in" - that's confusing - the screenshot gives you the actual time!
"I did not see..." - Why were you looking for officers stationed near the tapping machines? Do you see that that is a very strange thing for someone innocent to say?
You've also forgotten to mention that the notice you were given falsely stated 'no ticket or pass' on it.
Make sure the PDF identifies your TfL account - or else give them the details so they can look it up.
"acted in good faith" - so what are you admitting to have done wrong here? You only write that when you realise later that you did something wrong.

 

[workingkadir12]

It's still too much. Cut out ALL the irrelevant information!

Thank you - would this be better:

• On June 5th, 2024 morning (09:00am), I tapped in at Greenwich DLR station using my Apple Pay Credit Card (ending in XXXX).
• Upon exiting at Lewisham station, I proceeded to tap out with the same Apple Pay device.
• I have been charged £1.90 as expected for this single fare trip - please see attached PDF from my TFL account that shows this journey.
• After taking several steps in the direction of the Lewisham High Street Market, I was then approached by a TfL staff member (XXXX), who issued me with a penalty fare (PF No XXXX).
• This penalty fare notice was issued at 09:13am while my tap out was 09:05am.
• At no point was I asked to show my ticket or contactless payment. I was only told that I did not have my ticket checked before tapping out, and the staff member moved straight to issuing me a penalty fare.
• However, given that I have attached proof that I had a valid ticket for travel, and was given no opportunity to show this to the staff at the time, I respectfully request that the penalty fare be waived in light of this information.

 

[Titfield]

Put the tap out time in bullet point 2.