Chathill stoppers - transfer to Transpennine Express?

[adamedwards]

Each day Northern runs a dmu up the East Coast (I assume very empty) to form the 0708 from Chathill to Newcastle and Metro Centre. In the evening there is a run to Chathill from Metro Centre to Chathill with a return which i guess probably has limited use, at least north of Morpeth.

Would there be any possibility and merit in handing this service over to TPE so it could be run with a class 802? The advantage of faster acceleration at each stop could also be combined with starting this train back at Edinburgh either as an extra TPE train or, particularly in the morning, as a replacement for a current TPE path. Then journey will of course be slower overall, but the TPE trains are not aiming to be the fastest services as thats provided by LNER and Cross Country.

I am assuming if the service did start from Edinburgh the services against the peak flow to/from Newcastle would be withdrawn. Northern would then save a DMU for use elsewhere. I appreicate there are probably issues with platform length which could make this a non-starter.

This was prompted by watching the excellent new Don Coffey video on You Tube of a run from Newcastle to Edinburgh. Worth watching.

 

[skyhigh]

Would there be any possibility and merit in handing this service over to TPE so it could be run with a class 802?

Given all the issues TPE currently have, I don't think that would be an improvement for any party involved.

 

[Bletchleyite]

My thought on this was that it might make more sense to do the following:

Chathill: close, it's in the middle of a field and its usage is tiny. People driving to it can drive to Alnmouth instead. If pushing the boat out consider a new station at Belford instead and serve that with the TPEs, it at least has a reasonable hinterland (well, better than Breich! )

Alnmouth: keep, it's fairly well served anyway.

Acklington: I almost said keep, but it's used by about 2 people per day, so probably close. I know the service isn't very useful but it's well below the others in usage.

Widdrington and Pegswood: debatable, ideally serve with all the TPEs but if not pathable close one or both. Probably close Pegswood, it has a good bus service to Morpeth for a far better train service than Pegswood will ever have. Widdrington also has an hourly bus to Morpeth but only daytimes.

I'm sure I saw an actual proposal along these lines a while back but I don't know where it went.

(Random fact: I know someone who grew up in Widdrington Station - no, not on the platform, that's the name of the settlement).

 

[Bevan Price]

My thought on this was that it might make more sense to do the following:

Chathill: close, it's in the middle of a field and its usage is tiny. People driving to it can drive to Alnmouth instead. If pushing the boat out consider a new station at Belford instead and serve that with the TPEs, it at least has a reasonable hinterland (well, better than Breich! )

Alnmouth: keep, it's fairly well served anyway.

Acklington: I almost said keep, but it's used by about 2 people per day, so probably close. I know the service isn't very useful but it's well below the others in usage.

Widdrington and Pegswood: debatable, ideally serve with all the TPEs but if not pathable close one or both. Probably close Pegswood, it has a good bus service to Morpeth for a far better train service than Pegswood will ever have. Widdrington also has an hourly bus to Morpeth but only daytimes.

I'm sure I saw an actual proposal along these lines a while back but I don't know where it went.

(Random fact: I know someone who grew up in Widdrington Station - no, not on the platform, that's the name of the settlement).

Pegswood (population over 3000) is probably the one only worth saving; Aclikgton (500) and Widdrington (140) are too tiny to provide much traffic without large contributions from the hinterland.

 

[wilbers]

I'm sure I saw an actual proposal along these lines a while back but I don't know where it went.

This the one?

Northern Service Reductions from 4th Jan 2022

The arrival via Castleford departs back to Knottingley via Castleford, so the majority of these services use platform 17. There is a Saturday all day diagram (the one which is partly removed come January) and a couple of afternoon services which are booked 4 carriages so use platform 15 instead...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Bletchleyite]

Pegswood (population over 3000) is probably the one only worth saving; Aclikgton (500) and Widdrington (140) are too tiny to provide much traffic without large contributions from the hinterland.

Pegswood has very low usage, probably because of the vastly superior service (including LNER and XC) at Morpeth which is a short drive or bus ride away. It's almost a Peartree - in theory it'd be well used but not when it's only a few miles away from a station with a far better service than it'd even have if all the TPEs stopped.

Imagine if Bletchley only had 0.5tph, say. Nobody would use it.

See also Burscough Junction if you're going to Liverpool (it's a shame the stats are just numbers rather than an indication of what the journeys are), or indeed Fenny Stratford if going anywhere other than Bedford.

This the one?

Northern Service Reductions from 4th Jan 2022

The arrival via Castleford departs back to Knottingley via Castleford, so the majority of these services use platform 17. There is a Saturday all day diagram (the one which is partly removed come January) and a couple of afternoon services which are booked 4 carriages so use platform 15 instead...

www.railforums.co.uk

Yeah that looks like the thread.

 

[Kite159]

Pegswood has very low usage, probably because of the vastly superior service (including LNER and XC) at Morpeth which is a short drive or bus ride away. It's almost a Peartree - in theory it'd be well used but not when it's only a few miles away from a station with a far better service than it'd even have if all the TPEs stopped.

Imagine if Bletchley only had 0.5tph, say. Nobody would use it.

0.5tph is a world away from 1 northbound train & 2 southbound trains a day. Such limited service means people won't bother using the train, similar to those stations between Knottingley & Goole.

After-all even when the Marston Vale dropped to 2 hourly last year with replacement buses running in the other hour, the trains were still used.

 

[mike57]

Would there be any possibility and merit in handing this service over to TPE so it could be run with a class 802?

Dont TPE 802s run on diesel north of Newcastle? Mind you give the service to TPE, they can cancel it the night before, then its not really cancelled, problem solved (sorry in cynical mode this morning...)

I wouldn't give TPE anything at the moment (apart from the grand order of the boot), they cant deliver the services they are contracted to provide.

It does raise the question of what to do with the remaining small stations on this strech. Pathing must be a problem, particularly if using 75mph stock, and the current 2 trains per day each way isn't useful. So you either try improve the service, which is going to be a challenge or just accept that they are no longer serving a purpose, which leads to closure. I'm not even going to suggest relacement buses, because buses just do not compete with trains on journey time or comfort, so people will not use them, and thats before you get into issues like through ticketing.

So much as it goes against the grain, close Chathill and the other 3 small stations served by this service, because there are really no sensible alternatives.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What work would be needed to allow a 100mph EMU to be used? Just wiring the turnaround north of Chathill?

 

[Greybeard33]

What work would be needed to allow a 100mph EMU to be used? Just wiring the turnaround north of Chathill?

There is no turnback siding north of Chathill. The Northern units continue 6 miles north ECS to reverse in the (wired) Crag Mill Loop. Then return to the Chathill Up platform via the Belford crossover (half a mile south of the loop).

IMO Chathill and the other Northern-only stations should be closed, or reduced to a weekly parliamentary call (on a LNER/XC/TPE service so that Northern crews do not have to retain route knowledge).

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is no turnback siding north of Chathill. The Northern units continue 6 miles north ECS to reverse in the (wired) Crag Mill Loop. Then return to the Chathill Up platform via the Belford crossover (half a mile south of the loop).

So what is the reason an EMU is not used?

 

[ainsworth74]

So what is the reason an EMU is not used?

There are no EMUs in the North East for Northern to use as there are no, or certainly not enough to warrant, other services that are fully under the wires. Plus it would require redoing the diagrams as those services from Chathill continue on to the unwired Tyne Valley. Like most Morpeth services (which is why they aren't suitable for EMUs).

 

[gnolife]

Pegswood (population over 3000) is probably the one only worth saving; Aclikgton (500) and Widdrington (140) are too tiny to provide much traffic without large contributions from the hinterland.

Widdrington Station has a population of 2767, plus contributions from the hinterlands.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Widdrington Station has a population of 2767, plus contributions from the hinterlands.

Widdrington is useful enough a railhead that I believe TPE were considering serving it.

The others rather less so. Pegswood, as I said, isn't much use even with the TPEs because Morpeth is so much better served that people will mostly just drive there, and for the few who would live somewhere like that without a car there's an hourly bus service.

The usefulness of a station isn't purely defined by its population. Tring Station, the settlement containing, er, Tring Station, which is distinct from Tring itself, probably has a population of under 50, but the station has about 0.5 million entries/exits a year - it's a huge Parkway station from its wider hinterland. OK, you're never going to get that sort of figure in Northumberland, but the principle stands. Similarly, and more rurally, Burscough Bridge is basically "West Lancashire Parkway" for people going to Manchester.

 

[Anvil1984]

There are no EMUs in the North East for Northern to use as there are no, or certainly not enough to warrant, other services that are fully under the wires. Plus it would require redoing the diagrams as those services from Chathill continue on to the unwired Tyne Valley. Like most Morpeth services (which is why they aren't suitable for EMUs).

There also the turnback sidings at Morpeth which is unwired (there are electrified passenger loops north of Morpeth station but the trackwork / signalling are unsuitable for turnaround). If you can't use EMUs on Morpeths its pointless keeping one for Chathill

 

[Bletchleyite]

There also the turnback sidings at Morpeth which is unwired (there are electrified passenger loops north of Morpeth station but the trackwork / signalling are unsuitable for turnaround). If you can't use EMUs on Morpeths its pointless keeping one for Chathill

Sounds to me like that was a pennywise but pound-foolish decision!

 

[ainsworth74]

There also the turnback sidings at Morpeth which is unwired (there are electrified passenger loops north of Morpeth station but the trackwork / signalling are unsuitable for turnaround). If you can't use EMUs on Morpeths its pointless keeping one for Chathill

Yes I had a feeling it wasn't wired but wasn't 100% sure. But yes completely agree that at the moment EMUs are not worthwhile in the North East even if you did want to rejig the service pattern because there isn't enough infrastructure to make it work.

Sounds to me like that was a pennywise but pound-foolish decision!

Ah I see you've not come across the ECML electrification in the 80s/90s!

 

[adamedwards]

Thank you for the comments and the use stats. My assumption, as this is a speculative issue, is that at some point TPE will return to decent service levels, so was discounting that. The advantage of using a TPE 802 is that it can indeed run on diesel so could in theory still go on to Metro Centre as the final destination. Judging by the Dom Coffey video the switch to diesel is a good distance out from Newcastle, but again speculating that in 2 years time the power will be there for all electric running.

There is no point in trying to make this an EMU as there would then need to a unit in Newcastle just for this service. My thinking was if TPE run it, you can possibly save a unit by running the Chathill stoppers as part of the TPE Edinburgh to Newcastle semi fast service, but with electric power to keep the train out of the way of LNER and XC. There really should be an all day regular (hourly?) stopper on this section of route e.g.

Newcastle - Morpeth - Alnmouth - Belford (see below) - Berwick - Reston - Dunbar - Edinburgh, which TPE already mostly do. I sadly suspect an on demand taxi would be the best solution for most of the minor stations north of Morpeth.

There would doubtless need to be some recessing of this train to allow faster ones to pass. A Belford for Lindisfarne Parkway on the loops would seem ideal, if the timetable would fit and as other poeple have said, might be a railheading point that would attract business. Trying to run a bus link in sync with the Lindisfarne causeway and tide times would of course be the fun bit! I have cycled that at low tide and stood in the emergency refuge for any one who gets caught by the tide coming in. That would be a bleak experience.

Re EMUs (off topic slightly): The answer could be a Stadler 755 type train able to run on 25,000 AC, 1,500 DC (metro wires) and batteries or diesel so as to use less diesel under both sets of wires and then continue to run on to the routes off the electrified lines. But that needs to be the future 150/156/158 mass replacement programme and another thread.

 

[D6130]

I sadly suspect an on demand taxi would be the best solution for most of the minor stations north of Morpeth.

....and I sadly suspect that would include Reston.

The answer could be a Stadler 755 type train able to run on 25,000 AC, 1,500 DC (metro wires) and batteries or diesel so as to use less diesel under both sets of wires and then continue to run on to the routes off the electrified lines.

Unfortunately, IIRC, the Metro catenary is only designed for Light Rail vehicles travelling at a maximum speed of 80 km/h (50 mph). it would probably need to be renewed for heavy rail vehicles running at up to 112 km/h (70 mph), which is the maximum permitted speed on the Newcastle-Sunderland line.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Would it not make more sense to resolve the TPE maintenance issue (i.e. maintain the 802s somewhere other than Scotland) and have ScotRail extend the Dunbar EMU to Newcastle every two hours, which would be very much like the ScotRail service to Carlisle in concept? It seems bizarre to have TPE providing what is primarily a Scottish regional service.

 

[DanNCL]

As someone familiar with all of the stations in question, the only one that you could get away with closing is Acklington.

Pegswood and Widdrington both have large enough populations in the station catchment area to justify a frequent service.

Chathill whilst the village itself has a very low population, the station gets a surprising amount of use by non-walkers. The evening service in particular is popular with walkers and bikers during the Summer months. It doesn't justify a frequent service as such, but there's grounds to keep it open, say with 3 calls a day (early morning, lunchtime, and evening).

Cramlington needs a more frequent service than what it currently gets. For a town of its size it is woefully underserved, like Chester-le-Street.

it has a good bus service to Morpeth for a far better train service than Pegswood will ever have. Widdrington also has an hourly bus to Morpeth but only daytimes.

On paper it seems good but the X18 bus is about as reliable as TPE are currently.

Imagine if Bletchley only had 0.5tph, say. Nobody would use it.

Now there's an idea, shut Bletchley for not being useable

(I'll grab my coat...)

0.5tph is a world away from 1 northbound train & 2 southbound trains a day. Such limited service means people won't bother using the train, similar to those stations between Knottingley & Goole.

After-all even when the Marston Vale dropped to 2 hourly last year with replacement buses running in the other hour, the trains were still used.

Indeed. Chester-le-Street gets 0.5tph and still manages 150k usage per year, and that's not including the those who don't get to buy a ticket who quite possibly outnumber those that do at that station!

What work would be needed to allow a 100mph EMU to be used? Just wiring the turnaround north of Chathill?

Major electrical upgrades. As it is TPE and on Sundays some LNER services have to run on diesel between Chathill and somewhere in Scotland (can't remember where) because of power limitations.

Re EMUs (off topic slightly): The answer could be a Stadler 755 type train able to run on 25,000 AC, 1,500 DC (metro wires) and batteries or diesel so as to use less diesel under both sets of wires and then continue to run on to the routes off the electrified lines. But that needs to be the future 150/156/158 mass replacement programme and another thread.

The new Metro fleet will be battery equipped, the idea is that should the rest of the Durham Coast be electrified, the shared section would be converted to 25kV, and Metro units would run on battery power on the shared section.

Unfortunately, IIRC, the Metro catenary is only designed for Light Rail vehicles travelling at a maximum speed of 80 km/h (50 mph). it would probably need to be renewed for heavy rail vehicles running at up to 112 km/h (70 mph), which is the maximum permitted speed on the Newcastle-Sunderland line.

It's a bit more heavy duty on the Network Rail owned infrastructure. With just substation upgrades it could handle any unit capable of running on 1.5kV DC. It's the Nexus owned infrastructure that has the light duty wires, on parts of the network it's tramway style.

It would need a complete renewal apart from possibly the retention of a few masts to be converted to 25kV

Would it not make more sense to resolve the TPE maintenance issue (i.e. maintain the 802s somewhere other than Scotland) and have ScotRail extend the Dunbar EMU to Newcastle every two hours, which would be very much like the ScotRail service to Carlisle in concept? It seems bizarre to have TPE providing what is primarily a Scottish regional service.

Yes, which is why it won't happen!

The 802s should be maintained at Doncaster or Heaton. Craigentinny shouldn't have anything to do with them, they've got enough on their plate with the 385s.

 

[HSTEd]

The new Metro fleet will be battery equipped, the idea is that should the rest of the Durham Coast be electrified, the shared section would be converted to 25kV, and Metro units would run on battery power on the shared section.

The idea of 25kV electrification between Newcastle and Sunderland seems a little.... optimistic to me to say the least.

If the Durham coast is ever electrified (at all) I'd think you'd get a better business case for just turning the entire thing (north of Hartlepool) over to be operated as an extension of the Tyne and Wear Metro anyway!

Even with today's rather low performance metro stock its only a few minutes slower to Sunderland, but it's got better onward connectivity than the heavy rail line and it would enable a lot of simplification in the Newcastle station approach.

If you really must have through electric freight or what not you'd just have a couple of 1500V-capable locomotives available, the capability is not particularly expensive any more. Or just buy Tyne and Wear metro a couple of higher power departmental locomotives.

But I very much doubt 25kV electrification on the Durham Coast would ever anything close to a business case, so this choice wouldn't become an issue.

But all this is very much off topic!
But this whole mess with Chathill demonstrates the tyranny of diagramming on a partially electrified railway.

 

[Killingworth]

Chathill is an anomaly in that it was the junction for the North Sunderland branch. If that had remained open today it would have been called Seahouses and could have had a future for tourists to the coast. As it is Chathill is in the middle of nowhere with parking for about 5 or 6 cars. A relatively easy walk or cycle ride to the coast but current timings won't attract either cyclists or walkers - trains at 5.57 and 17.57 out from Newcastle, 7.08 and 19.15 back.

Once in a car Alnmouth is the best local bet with quick services to Newcastle and Edinburgh. It's car parks are well used. More stopping trains at small stations delay the fasts.

Why do Northern still stop at Chathill? Because northbound services reverse in the Crag Mill loop just to the north before returning south. It's a well kept station.

Pegswood (population over 3000) is probably the one only worth saving; Aclikgton (500) and Widdrington (140) are too tiny to provide much traffic without large contributions from the hinterland.

Pegswood has a very good Arriva bus service 35 into Morpeth taking 7 minutes every 20 minutes, and taking 11 minutes to Ashington. The X18 runs hourly between Newcastle and Alnmouth village taking about 45 minutes into Newcastle. There is no parking at the station (although Pegswood Miners Community Park's car park is close by). The train takes about 25 minutes into Newcastle - two of them, at 7.56 and 19.48. There's only the 17.57 back out of Newcastle.

Widdrington has parking for 4 cars and is served by the X18 and X20 buses to/from Newcastle. The No 1 runs from there every 30 minutes to Ashington and Blyth.

Back in 1969 when I very briefly worked at Acklington the RAF station was running down and is now the site of HMP Prison Northumberland. Rather more trains stopped back then. The Tynesider sleeper from London was still stopping there into the 60s. But then most of us got cars, including prison visitors! It would be handy for Amble, a rather run down town 50 years ago but increasingly fashionable today. However when my family stays there for summer holidays Alnmouth is near enough for faster services both north and south.

Reopen the North Sunderland (Seahouses) branch as a terminal station for these stoppers. It would generate a lot more traffic than any of these smaller stations. (However Seahouses and that formerly fairly quiet part of the coast is getting over run with tourists like Cornwall. Local residents might not favour train loads more.)

 

[Greybeard33]

Chathill is an anomaly in that it was the junction for the North Sunderland branch. If that had remained open today it would have been called Seahouses and could have had a future for tourists to the coast. As it is Chathill is in the middle of nowhere with parking for about 5 or 6 cars. A relatively easy walk or cycle ride to the coast but current timings won't attract either cyclists or walkers - trains at 5.57 and 17.57 out from Newcastle, 7.08 and 19.15 back.

Once in a car Alnmouth is the best local bet with quick services to Newcastle and Edinburgh. It's car parks are well used. More stopping trains at small stations delay the fasts.

Why do Northern still stop at Chathill? Because northbound services reverse in the Crag Mill loop just to the north before returning south. It's a well kept station.

Pegswood has a very good Arriva bus service 35 into Morpeth taking 7 minutes every 20 minutes, and taking 11 minutes to Ashington. The X18 runs hourly between Newcastle and Alnmouth village taking about 45 minutes into Newcastle. There is no parking at the station (although Pegswood Miners Community Park's car park is close by). The train takes about 25 minutes into Newcastle - two of them, at 7.56 and 19.48. There's only the 17.57 back out of Newcastle.

Widdrington has parking for 4 cars and is served by the X18 and X20 buses to/from Newcastle. The No 1 runs from there every 30 minutes to Ashington and Blyth.

Back in 1969 when I very briefly worked at Acklington the RAF station was running down and is now the site of HMP Prison Northumberland. Rather more trains stopped back then. The Tynesider sleeper from London was still stopping there into the 60s. But then most of us got cars, including prison visitors! It would be handy for Amble, a rather run down town 50 years ago but increasingly fashionable today. However when my family stays there for summer holidays Alnmouth is near enough for faster services both north and south.

Reopen the North Sunderland (Seahouses) branch as a terminal station for these stoppers. It would generate a lot more traffic than any of these smaller stations. (However Seahouses and that formerly fairly quiet part of the coast is getting over run with tourists like Cornwall. Local residents might not favour train loads more.)

I have relatives in Amble, who regard as risible the suggestion that anyone from the town would use the token service from Acklington. For those unable to drive or afford a taxi, there is a good bus service to Alnmouth.

With the railway in financial crisis, reopening the branch to Seahouses is a fantasy. When the DfT requires Northern to make drastic cost savings next year, the loss making Chathill stoppers will be low hanging fruit to chop.

 

[Killingworth]

I have relatives in Amble, who regard as risible the suggestion that anyone from the town would use the token service from Acklington. For those unable to drive or afford a taxi, there is a good bus service to Alnmouth.

With the railway in financial crisis, reopening the branch to Seahouses is a fantasy. When the DfT requires Northern to make drastic cost savings next year, the loss making Chathill stoppers will be low hanging fruit to chop.

Reopening the Seahouses branch is such fantasy that nobody seems to have considered making even a token case to do so. It would make more sense than some that have been suggested, but I'd agree that the priority today is maintaining and improving the major routes and connections we still have before adding any more.

The current stopping services are unattractive to potential local users, and so are the stations. I've visited all of them recently but, apart from Alnmouth, never considered doing so by train.

 

[D6130]

Reopening the Seahouses branch is such fantasy that nobody seems to have considered making even a token case to do so. It would make more sense than some that have been suggested, but I'd agree that the priority today is maintaining and improving the major routes and connections we still have before adding any more.

The current stopping services are unattractive to potential local users, and so are the stations. I've visited all of them recently but, apart from Alnmouth, never considered doing so by train.

The train service may be unattractive to potential local users, but I have to say that when I passed through Chathill en route to Edinburgh a week ago, the station itself looked most attractive....with a plethora of flower pots and hanging baskets on the Down platform and replica (?) North-Eastern Region orange enamel totem signs. I wonder whether these have been provided and maintained by a local users' group, or by the residents of the rather magnificent station building?

 

[adamedwards]

Would it not make more sense to resolve the TPE maintenance issue (i.e. maintain the 802s somewhere other than Scotland) and have ScotRail extend the Dunbar EMU to Newcastle every two hours, which would be very much like the ScotRail service to Carlisle in concept? It seems bizarre to have TPE providing what is primarily a Scottish regional service.

Would a 100mph emu work? The advantage of TPE 802s is higher speed on some sections which might make a difference in patching. But I agree in an ideal world there ought to be a regular Edinburgh to Newcastle all stations local train.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Would a 100mph emu work? The advantage of TPE 802s is higher speed on some sections which might make a difference in patching. But I agree in an ideal world there ought to be a regular Edinburgh to Newcastle all stations local train.

If 100mph works and the cheapo wires can't support an EMU, then a 3-car Class 195 (if Northern operated) or 170 (if ScotRail operated) would do.

 

[zwk500]

If 100mph works and the cheapo wires can't support an EMU, then a 3-car Class 195 (if Northern operated) or 170 (if ScotRail operated) would do.

The wires on the ECML aren't so much the problem, but what they're plugged into. Something the PSU is addressing.

 

[adamedwards]

I should have been clearer in what I wrote. My issue with a 100mph emu for the service is line capactity in comparison with a 125mph class 802. If we are to run my hypothetical Chathill Local, does the 100 mph top speed make pathing harder than if the train can do 125mph? I am assuming yes, as the 802s are not slow to get moving.

I am expecting within 2-3 years the power supply and robustness issues will have been dealt with and TPE will be all electric Newcastle to Edinburgh.