Checking a cross-London/round-central-London routing

[AlbertBeale]

Can someone confirm that a cross-London through ticket from, say, West Hampstead to the Brighton Line / south coast / etc would be valid via Kensington Olympia (and Clapham Junction etc) as well as via an Underground or Thameslink route across the centre. Thanks. I assume it's perfectly valid, but have learned [especially from this forum] not to take things for granted.

 

[plugwash]

My understanding is that if it doesn't go through a "london terminal" it's not considered to be "via London".

Each destination would have to be assessed on it's own merits. For Brighton specifically the single and return tickets are routed "✠ANY PERMITTED" so they can potentially be used both on routes via London and routes avoiding London.

If we consider mapped routes, according to the routing point calculator the valid origin routing points are Gospel Oak and Willisden junction.

From Gospel Oak to Brighton the only mapped route is LONDON

For Willisden Junction to Brighton your options are either LONDON or OV+LB.

OV+LB covers Willisden Junction to Brighton via Kensington Olympia, Clapham Junction, optionally Crystal Palace, Croydon and then down the Brighton mainline to Brighton.

 

[AlbertBeale]

My understanding is that if it doesn't go through a "london terminal" it's not considered to be "via London".

Each destination would have to be assessed on it's own merits. For Brighton specifically the single and return tickets are routed "✠ANY PERMITTED" so they can potentially be used both on routes via London and routes avoiding London.

If we consider mapped routes, according to the routing point calculator the valid origin routing points are Gospel Oak and Willisden junction.

From Gospel Oak to Brighton the only mapped route is LONDON

For Willisden Junction to Brighton your options are either LONDON or OV+LB.

OV+LB covers Willisden Junction to Brighton via Kensington Olympia, Clapham Junction, optionally Crystal Palace, Croydon and then down the Brighton mainline to Brighton.

Thanks for this. Though I'm still confused. So is it that Brighton tickets, being routed ✠ANY PERMITTED, can only potentially be used both across London and via Olympia, and this requires checking station by station?

If so, given West Hampstead is between Wilsden Junction and Gospel Oak, "on which side of the line" does it fall? Is it like Gospel Oak and not valid via the West London Line, only across central London, or is it like Wilsden Junction and valid across central London but also round the side?

Or ... if West Hampstead is associated with both routing points, is it valid to use either of them when working out what's permitted (ie the less restrictive one)?

From what I can see, West Hampstead Thameslink is its own routing point (while plain old West Hampstead is linked with both Wilsden Junction and Gospel Oak), yet the former doesn't appear in the Permitted Route Identifier tables. (I don't understand why it doesn't.)

A further confusion is that for ticketing purposes, all the West Hampstead stations (including the Thameslink one) are lumped together, with tickets issued from "West Hampstead Stations". Does this have implications for being able to select the most advantageous routing point?

I'm beginning to regret asking in the first place......

 

[Haywain]

all the West Hampstead stations (including the Thameslink one)

Both - there are two National Rail stations.

 

[HurdyGurdy]

From what I can see, West Hampstead Thameslink is its own routing point (while plain old West Hampstead is linked with both Wilsden Junction and Gospel Oak), yet the former doesn't appear in the Permitted Route Identifier tables.

Both - there are two National Rail stations.

The confusion which may arise is that while West Hampstead Thameslink station (CRS code; WHP) is a Routeing Point and West Hampstead is a separate station (CRS code; WHD), in the 'Yellow Pages' of the routeing guide the permitted (mapped) routes to/from the Routeing Point (WHP) are listed under "West Hampstead" rather than "West Hampstead Thameslink". I'm sure this is simply because the "West Hampsted Thameslink' name is too long to fit in the available space in the "Journeys between..." columns of the table. Of course the overlong name could have been abbreviated in any number of ways, but someone chose an abbreviation which just happens to be the name of a quite separate station, which is not itself a Routeing Point, nor a member of any Routeing Group.

Once any possible confusion arising from the way listings are labelled in the Yellow pages has been understood, it should be clear that for routing purposes, WHP and WHD are separate stations, so have quite separate lists of valid routes.

However, for ticketing purposes they are members of the West Hampstead stations group (W HAMPSTEAD STNS). Tickets issued from W HAMPSTEAD STNS to a given destination can be used from either WHP on any of its valid routes to that destination or from WHD, via any of its valid routes. And, having used the outward portion of a return ticket to travel from one, you may use the return portion to travel back to the other.

 

[Belperpete]

Can someone confirm that a cross-London through ticket from, say, West Hampstead to the Brighton Line / south coast / etc would be valid via Kensington Olympia (and Clapham Junction etc) as well as via an Underground or Thameslink route across the centre. Thanks. I assume it's perfectly valid, but have learned [especially from this forum] not to take things for granted.

The easy way is to enter your proposed journey into a journey planner that allows you to specify an intermediate station, and try the various options. West Hampstead to Brighton gives the same fare whether or not you specify Olympia as an intermediate point.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Thanks all! I'm a little clearer now. Abbreviating WH T/L to just WH in the Routeing Guide certainly threw me.

One clarification please - if a station such as West Hampstead (not a routeing point) is associated with two different routing points, is it OK to choose which of the two to use when working out what's a permitted route to any given destination (ie the less restrictive one for that destination)?

The easy way is to enter your proposed journey into a journey planner that allows you to specify an intermediate station, and try the various options. West Hampstead to Brighton gives the same fare whether or not you specify Olympia as an intermediate point.

I tried this on the forum's ticket site [and got the result I wanted in terms of confirming the availability I wanted, as you say], but got a bit confused because it showed me a ticket which I know is the right price for one including the cross-London component of a West Hampstead to Brighton through ticket, but it also - when hovering the cursor over the price box for an offered journey - brought up a sign saying "Use contactless/Oyster to travel across London", which is a bit misleading. If I'd proceeded to the next step, to buy the ticket online, it would have said the ticket included a journey by tube or whatever; but surely, on the earlier screen, given it shouldn't suggest you need to pay for the cross-London segment of the route when the offered ticket includes it anyway? Maybe someone involved with the forum's ticket site can comment on this?

 

[Alex365Dash]

One clarification please - if a station such as West Hampstead (not a routeing point) is associated with two different routing points, is it OK to choose which of the two to use when working out what's a permitted route to any given destination (ie the less restrictive one for that destination)?

The answer depends on the result of the fares check! You could go through the NFM64 fares database and work it out for yourself, or do the much easier method of using the Routeing Point Calculator to do the fares check for you.

In this specific case, both Routeing Points (RPs) pass the fares check so you can use either RP.

 

[AlbertBeale]

The answer depends on the result of the fares check! You could go through the NFM64 fares database and work it out for yourself, or do the much easier method of using the Routeing Point Calculator to do the fares check for you.

In this specific case, both Routeing Points (RPs) pass the fares check so you can use either RP.

I'm afraid I don't fully understand your reply - I'm not sure what the "fares check" means in this context. However, you've answered the point for this particular journey - so thanks! (But I might try to get my head round the subtleties for another time...)

 

[Watershed]

I'm afraid I don't fully understand your reply - I'm not sure what the "fares check" means in this context. However, you've answered the point for this particular journey - so thanks! (But I might try to get my head round the subtleties for another time...)

When using the Routeing Guide, you have to choose 'appropriate' Routeing Points if you're making a non-local journey (i.e. one where there aren't any Routeing Points in common). The 'fares check' is the procedure you undertake to identify which Routeing Points are 'appropriate' (i.e. permitted) for your journey.

The fares check involves looking at the historic fares as at time of privatisation (September 1996 - when the fares manual was called "NFM64", hence the phrase "NFM64 fares") and seeing whether the fare from the Routeing Point you want to use is higher than the fare from the station you're travelling from, or vice versa.

If the fare is higher, then the Routeing Point is not deemed 'appropriate' - the idea being that this could otherwise open up loopholes, as you'd be allowed to travel via a station from which the fare is higher (and thus potentially start/finish your journey there to undercut the fare).

If the fare is the same (or lower), then the Routeing Point is deemed 'appropriate'.

The route code of the fare you're considering is relevant to this check, as (wherever possible) you have to use the same kind of fare (ticket type, route code) throughout for a fair comparison. Sometimes a Routeing Point will pass the fares check for one route code, but not for another route code.

This is all rather complicated, as you can see. But the Routeing Point Calculator makes it simple as it works out the Routeing Points that are appropriate.

 

[HurdyGurdy]

This is all rather complicated, as you can see. But the Routeing Point Calculator makes it simple as it works out the Routeing Points that are appropriate.

But even after you've used the RP Calculator to determine which Routeing Points are appropriate and can therefore see which mapped routes are permitted from A to B, there are further steps to take. Including checking that the routing of the ticket or a negative easement does not prohibit any of the mapped routes being used.

There really should be a simpler way for the OP to easily answer their own question, other than RDG's stock response of using the National Rail journey planner. That journey planner routinely advises that there is 'no fare available' for journeys where perfectly valid through fares exist. Most other journey planners only provide the fastest itineraries for which there are timetabled trains, so even those which allow the application of a via or avoid location to try and answer a query like the OP's, don't show all valid routes for which fares exist between A and B.

 

[AlbertBeale]

But even after you've used the RP Calculator to determine which Routeing Points are appropriate and can therefore see which mapped routes are permitted from A to B, there are further steps to take. Including checking that the routing of the ticket or a negative easement does not prohibit any of the mapped routes being used.

There really should be a simpler way for the OP to easily answer their own question, other than RDG's stock response of using the National Rail journey planner. That journey planner routinely advises that there is 'no fare available' for journeys where perfectly valid through fares exist. Most other journey planners only provide the fastest itineraries for which there are timetabled trains, so even those which allow the application of a via or avoid location to try and answer a query like the OP's, don't show all valid routes for which fares exist between A and B.

Indeed!!

But thanks all for at least clarifying/confirming my situation in this particular instance. (Even if I don't fully understand the basis of your assurances!)

 

[MrJeeves]

If the fare is higher, then the Routeing Point is not deemed 'appropriate' - the idea being that this could otherwise open up loopholes, as you'd be allowed to travel via a station from which the fare is higher (and thus potentially start/finish your journey there to undercut the fare).

If the fare is the same (or lower), then the Routeing Point is deemed 'appropriate'.

The route code of the fare you're considering is relevant to this check, as (wherever possible) you have to use the same kind of fare (ticket type, route code) throughout for a fair comparison. Sometimes a Routeing Point will pass the fares check for one route code, but not for another route code.

What if all routeing points fail the fares check?

 

[Haywain]

What if all routeing points fail the fares check?

I guess that means you're left with the shortest route and routes within 3 miles of the shortest route.

 

[AlbertBeale]

This is all rather complicated, as you can see. But the Routeing Point Calculator makes it simple as it works out the Routeing Points that are appropriate.

When you say the Routeing Point Calculator, do you mean the pink, yellow, etc, pages in The Book? (Sorry if this is a silly question...)

 

[Watershed]

When you say the Routeing Point Calculator, do you mean the pink, yellow, etc, pages in The Book? (Sorry if this is a silly question...)

It's not a silly question at all! It's a tool that RDG make available online here.

 

[miklcct]

Can someone confirm that a cross-London through ticket from, say, West Hampstead to the Brighton Line / south coast / etc would be valid via Kensington Olympia (and Clapham Junction etc) as well as via an Underground or Thameslink route across the centre. Thanks. I assume it's perfectly valid, but have learned [especially from this forum] not to take things for granted.

This ticket (West Hampstead Stations to Brighton, +Any Permitted) is valid from all three (Overground, Underground, Thameslink) West Hampstead stations to Brighton.

From West Hampstead (Overground) to Brighton, a valid route is via Kensington (Olympia), Clapham Junction and Gatwick Airport. This is the shortest route wholly by rail so no further check is needed.

From West Hampstead Thameslink to Brighton, a direct train is automatically valid, no further check is needed. If you want to change trains, the usual routes (such as via London Bridge and East Croydon) are listed in the Routeing Guide as valid routes.

From West Hampstead (Underground) to Brighton, it is valid by the provision of the cross-London transfer, as West Hampstead Thameslink to Brighton is valid via London as mentioned above, and West Hampstead (Underground) is a valid cross-London transfer tube station where you can start your tube transfer to places such as Victoria, London Bridge, Blackfriars, Balham, which is on a valid route for the National Rail journey between West Hampstead Thameslink and Brighton.

As a result, this is an extremely flexible, good-value ticket which can be used to travel between the majority of London Terminals with unlimited breaks of journey in between, including all the southern ones and also St Pancras, something which neither a ticket from London Terminals (not valid at St Pancras) nor London Thameslink (not valid at Victoria) can do, and also one tube journey for each of the outward and return between the appropriate terminals as well, with absolutely no operator restrictions (valid on the Gatwick Express as well!). At £17.70 before discount, you can, for example, travel from Brighton on the Gatwick Express to Victoria (cheaper than a normal Gatwick Express ticket from the airport!), then take the tube to Kings Cross to visit the British Library, have a walk through Camden Town and get back the train at Kentish Town, change at West Hampstead for the Overground to Shepherd's Bush for shopping before returning to Brighton, all with a return ticket on a weekend.