Cheltenham Racecourse connection?

[ABB125]

Here is the article from The Cornishman. Apologies for the poor 2nd photograph.

Key points are:

• Land costs of around £320 000, once some that would need to be purchased has been resold
• £600 000 to build a new single track line using "outside contractors", not including VAT or any "substantial" Network Rail charges
• One possible avenue of funding is the sale of some GWSR land on the former alignment into Cheltenham which would now be redundant
• Also suggests a joint project between the Racecourse, GWSR, Network Rail, local councils etc

 

[Mountain Man]

The bigger issue in the area that needs solving before you start messing around with a Cheltenham Racecourse extension is the never ending debacle in Gloucester

 

[Mountain Man]

It would perhaps make sense if extended to Bishops Cleeve, since the 'village’ has grown very rapidly in recent years and now has a population of around 17,000, with more houses still being built. Road congestion is an issue.

Yes, and you may generate some commuter traffic to the factories nearby

 

[The Planner]

Here is the article from The Cornishman. Apologies for the poor 2nd photograph.

Key points are:

• Land costs of around £320 000, once some that would need to be purchased has been resold
• £600 000 to build a new single track line using "outside contractors", not including VAT or any "substantial" Network Rail charges
• One possible avenue of funding is the sale of some GWSR land on the former alignment into Cheltenham which would now be redundant
• Also suggests a joint project between the Racecourse, GWSR, Network Rail, local councils etc

Maybe I am missing something here, they don't want "substantial" NR charges, but want it to be a joint project? Do they expect it to be part of the national network when finished, as if so I'm not sure how they can expect NR to not say "build it to our standards"?

 

[ABB125]

Maybe I am missing something here, they don't want "substantial" NR charges, but want it to be a joint project? Do they expect it to be part of the national network when finished, as if so I'm not sure how they can expect NR to not say "build it to our standards"?

I think this particular suggestion is that the GWSR would build the new track, presumably to a lower standard than Network Rail would (although what that would be I don't know). This could be done for the quoted £1 million.
On top of that would be the costs of the mainline connection and associated works, which haven't been calculated.
I think the thinking behind the joint project would be the costs being shared between all parties, which presumably would mean Network Rail being in charge of project delivery. (Having said that, it would make in interesting case study if the GWSR took charge and delivered the project themselves. It could provide a comparison against Network Rail for other projects around the country.)
However, as I said above, my preference would be reopening the old route through Cheltenham.

 

[4141]

However, as I said above, my preference would be reopening the old route through Cheltenham.

As I've said before on other threads, Never Going To Happen - they're just finishing off the extension to the current station car park on the old Western formation between Queen's Road and Lansdown Road bridges...can you see them ever giving that up? Quite apart from the fact that there is no suitable place nearer the town to build a 21st century station...

 

[Dr Day]

Cheltenham, like many other large towns and smaller cities, could probably do with an ultra-lightweight/low cost, well segregated, reliable mass transit system to join up the outer residential suburbs/P&R, mainline railway station, main shopping, educational, employment and health locations. A lot could be done better with buses, but they still don't have the permanency of a dedicated track and fixed stops. Former rail corridors could form part of something, however they also make great active travel routes.

Anything to NR heavy rail standards, whilst putting places 'on the map' and potentially enabling through services to the wider rail network, comes with a huge price tag, not just in terms of the capital cost, but also the ongoing maintenance and operating costs.

 

[ABB125]

Cheltenham, like many other large towns and smaller cities, could probably do with an ultra-lightweight/low cost, well segregated, reliable mass transit system to join up the outer residential suburbs/P&R, mainline railway station, main shopping, educational, employment and health locations. A lot could be done better with buses, but they still don't have the permanency of a dedicated track and fixed stops. Former rail corridors could form part of something, however they also make great active travel routes.

Anything to NR heavy rail standards, whilst putting places 'on the map' and potentially enabling through services to the wider rail network, comes with a huge price tag, not just in terms of the capital cost, but also the ongoing maintenance and operating costs.

I agree, but do the people who make the necessary decisions?
Cheltenham used to have a tram network, see this screenshot from railmaponline.com

 

[tony6499]

I remember seeing the chaos at Cheltenham Spa station on Festival raceday on the TV programme and a new station nearer the course would be ideal but I doubt it would be feasible unless somebody waves a magic wand

 

[AlastairFraser]

Here is the article from The Cornishman. Apologies for the poor 2nd photograph.
View attachment 74482 View attachment 74481
Key points are:

• Land costs of around £320 000, once some that would need to be purchased has been resold
• £600 000 to build a new single track line using "outside contractors", not including VAT or any "substantial" Network Rail charges
• One possible avenue of funding is the sale of some GWSR land on the former alignment into Cheltenham which would now be redundant
• Also suggests a joint project between the Racecourse, GWSR, Network Rail, local councils etc

Surely the eventual idea is that there is a main line connection for the GWSR as well, which could be built to main line standards plus the GWSR upgraded and extended to Honeybourne for the Cotswold Line, so there is a 2nd cross country route. I won't hold my breath but then the potential is there to extend on to Stratford and Brum with an extension.

 

[duffield]

So presumably the Racecourse station would have to brought up to modern standards and not heritage? Im filing this one under "Crayola"

There are two platforms at the racecourse station and the heritage operation only really needs one of them, the other platform could be used for NR (as already happens at Matlock with Peak Rail). Lifts etc. for inter-platform exchange would presumably not be required as it would be the end of the line as far as NR was concerned. There may be all sorts of reasons why this is impractical but I don't think issues with Racecourse station is one of them.

 

[tigerroar]

The bigger issue in the area that needs solving before you start messing around with a Cheltenham Racecourse extension is the never ending debacle in Gloucester

What is that?

 

[tigerroar]

...priority a station to get the other large developments around Hatherley and Churchdown connected to the railway, which runs right through the middle of both.

There is absolutely no need for a station at Churchdown. There is no parking and only a small percentage of the population is within walking distance, plus it's well served by buses.

 

[6Gman]

I remember seeing the chaos at Cheltenham Spa station on Festival raceday on the TV programme and a new station nearer the course would be ideal but I doubt it would be feasible unless somebody waves a magic wand

Was it really "chaos" or just "very busy"?

 

[6Gman]

I think this particular suggestion is that the GWSR would build the new track, presumably to a lower standard than Network Rail would (although what that would be I don't know). This could be done for the quoted £1 million.
On top of that would be the costs of the mainline connection and associated works, which haven't been calculated.
I think the thinking behind the joint project would be the costs being shared between all parties, which presumably would mean Network Rail being in charge of project delivery. (Having said that, it would make in interesting case study if the GWSR took charge and delivered the project themselves. It could provide a comparison against Network Rail for other projects around the country.)
However, as I said above, my preference would be reopening the old route through Cheltenham.

I'm getting confused.

Is the idea just to link the GWSR to the national network to allow stock to be moved on/off and perhaps the occasional through working or to have 2 trains per hour serving Cheltenham Parkway/ Racecourse/ Park&Ride or whatever you wish to call it?

I can see the former being possible with the GWSR/ lower standard/ £1M scheme - but no way are they going to send 800s down such a line on a daily basis!

 

[ABB125]

I'm getting confused.

Is the idea just to link the GWSR to the national network to allow stock to be moved on/off and perhaps the occasional through working or to have 2 trains per hour serving Cheltenham Parkway/ Racecourse/ Park&Ride or whatever you wish to call it?

I can see the former being possible with the GWSR/ lower standard/ £1M scheme - but no way are they going to send 800s down such a line on a daily basis!

I'm not sure, could be both! Were it to be done though I'd prefer a higher quality scheme.

 

[satisnek]

I've never 'got' Cheltenham. A quick review of railway history shows that the first station in the town was a terminus - which would later be developed into St. James - close to the town centre. So far so logical. Then along came the Birmingham & Gloucester Railway which, instead of building its main station on the Tewkesbury Road - the closest point to the town centre - opted for a site further south at Lansdown. Later on, the GWR's Honeybourne route - which actually crossed over the end of the High Street - had a station at Malvern Road, which was probably the only area in which a station could be laid out by this time (early 20th century).

Several decades later the Beeching plan saw Cheltenham's railway provision reduced to Lansdown alone. Then the local authority seemingly did the stupidest thing and redeveloped the St. James station site. No, we're not talking the late 1960s shortly after closure, but around 20 years ago!! And by this time there were already a number of services terminating at Cheltenham from the south. The obvious thing to me would have been to run these services to a reopened, 'basic' St. James via a 'Platform 3' at Lansdown - or at least reserve the land until funds became available. Now they're talking about extending through to the Racecourse, additional terminal platforms at Lansdown, lack of car parking spaces at the same, etc.etc.

Huh?

 

[S-Bahn]

I've never 'got' Cheltenham. A quick review of railway history shows that the first station in the town was a terminus - which would later be developed into St. James - close to the town centre. So far so logical. Then along came the Birmingham & Gloucester Railway which, instead of building its main station on the Tewkesbury Road - the closest point to the town centre - opted for a site further south at Lansdown. Later on, the GWR's Honeybourne route - which actually crossed over the end of the High Street - had a station at Malvern Road, which was probably the only area in which a station could be laid out by this time (early 20th century).

Several decades later the Beeching plan saw Cheltenham's railway provision reduced to Lansdown alone. Then the local authority seemingly did the stupidest thing and redeveloped the St. James station site. No, we're not talking the late 1960s shortly after closure, but around 20 years ago!! And by this time there were already a number of services terminating at Cheltenham from the south. The obvious thing to me would have been to run these services to a reopened, 'basic' St. James via a 'Platform 3' at Lansdown - or at least reserve the land until funds became available. Now they're talking about extending through to the Racecourse, additional terminal platforms at Lansdown, lack of car parking spaces at the same, etc.etc.

Huh?

Totally agree - The decisions taken around Cheltenham have been very short sighted.

 

[S-Bahn]

Has any thought ever been given to running a light rail/narrow gauge tram-style service from Queens Road Bridge (just outside Cheltenham station) and running along the old line to Bishops Cleeve?

 

[crablab]

Has any thought ever been given to running a light rail/narrow gauge tram-style service from Queens Road Bridge (just outside Cheltenham station) and running along the old line to Bishops Cleeve?

I believe this was suggested almost a decade ago, but I might be misremembering.

 

[jayah]

There is absolutely no need for a station at Churchdown. There is no parking and only a small percentage of the population is within walking distance, plus it's well served by buses.

Lots of housing right next to the line and lots of room for more. Churchdown to Cheltenham Spa is about 35mins by public transport, would be about 5 by rail. All those rail heading commuters are coming from somewhere.

Fancy building housing around public transport infrastructure. All too rare these days.

 

[4141]

Lots of housing right next to the line and lots of room for more. Churchdown to Cheltenham Spa is about 35mins by public transport, would be about 5 by rail. All those rail heading commuters are coming from somewhere.

Fancy building housing around public transport infrastructure. All too rare these days.

Churchdown covers quite a wide area, and by the time someone has travelled from, say the Hare and Hounds on the old main road to the site of the station and caught a train they could almost be in the centre of either Cheltenham or Gloucester via the bus service which runs every 10 minutes during the day, and right through the night as well (and the journey time is more like twenty minutes, not thirty five) - and as for commuting into Cheltenham, you've still got to get from Lansdown to the town centre anyway, so sorry, I don't think it's workable as a commuter option...

 

[jayah]

Churchdown covers quite a wide area, and by the time someone has travelled from, say the Hare and Hounds on the old main road to the site of the station and caught a train they could almost be in the centre of either Cheltenham or Gloucester via the bus service which runs every 10 minutes during the day, and right through the night as well (and the journey time is more like twenty minutes, not thirty five) - and as for commuting into Cheltenham, you've still got to get from Lansdown to the town centre anyway, so sorry, I don't think it's workable as a commuter option...

35mins was from there to Cheltenham Spa not somewhere else. All these people driving to Cheltenham Spa to commute to Birmingham need an alternative and a railway station in a built up area with good onward connections rarely fails.

 

[Mountain Man]

What is that?

The station location means trains on the mainline from Birmingham to Bristol don't stop there, and trains from London have to reverse out.

They've talked about moving the station for years

 

[Mountain Man]

Was it really "chaos" or just "very busy"?

Its chaos.

Because of the awkward access it causes mayhem for other people trying to access the station

 

[jayah]

There are two platforms at the racecourse station and the heritage operation only really needs one of them, the other platform could be used for NR (as already happens at Matlock with Peak Rail). Lifts etc. for inter-platform exchange would presumably not be required as it would be the end of the line as far as NR was concerned. There may be all sorts of reasons why this is impractical but I don't think issues with Racecourse station is one of them.

It would be a serious failure to address the symptoms by building a Racecourse P&R without addressing the cause - Bishops Cleeve development. Cleeve needs a fast connection both to the centre and to the railway not a bus taking 45min to Spa, off peak.

 

[Llanigraham]

It would be a serious failure to address the symptoms by building a Racecourse P&R without addressing the cause - Bishops Cleeve development. Cleeve needs a fast connection both to the centre and to the railway not a bus taking 45min to Spa, off peak.

How many of the people living in Bishops Cleeve work in the centre of Cheltenham, or near the station?
I bet a lot work in the offices on the outskirts of Cheltenham or Gloucester or even at the Doughnut (GCHQ). A train for them is going to be a waste of time.

 

[4141]

It would be a serious failure to address the symptoms by building a Racecourse P&R without addressing the cause - Bishops Cleeve development. Cleeve needs a fast connection both to the centre and to the railway not a bus taking 45min to Spa, off peak.

Once again, you fail to realise the size of Bishop's Cleeve these days, and exaggerate the time taken. The bus only takes twenty minutes from Cheltenham town centre to The Swallow with its small parade of shops, and then another fifteen minutes is taken up by going out on the Gotherington road and then through a new estate, circling back to its official end point in Mill Parade. If you are envisioning the station for your proposed "fast connection" being at or near the site of the old GWR station, how does that benefit the new developments on or around the Evesham Road? As with your earlier Churchdown example, by the time these people have got to your proposed station, they could virtually be in Cheltenham centre via the Stagecoach D service - which, of course, eventually stops right outside Lansdown station...oh, and by the way, do you have a site in mind for the Cheltenham terminus?

 

[GoneSouth]

, plus it's well served by buses.

But not well served by buses going anywhere near Cheltenham station

35mins was from there to Cheltenham Spa not somewhere else. All these people driving to Cheltenham Spa to commute to Birmingham need an alternative and a railway station in a built up area with good onward connections rarely fails.

Gloucestershire Parkway at Elmbridge anyone

 

[jayah]

How many of the people living in Bishops Cleeve work in the centre of Cheltenham, or near the station?
I bet a lot work in the offices on the outskirts of Cheltenham or Gloucester or even at the Doughnut (GCHQ). A train for them is going to be a waste of time.

You seem to be arguing all railways are a waste of time in that case. Just because you can find one person who won't benefit, nobody should benefit.

Railway succeed when they connect places of residence with places of work. Connecting Cleeve with Cheltenham and connecting Churchdown with Birmingham, Gloucester and Cheltenham would provide useful connections and relieve the congestion stemming from building more and more housing remote from rail access.