Cherry Tree to Manchester Stations any-permitted validity via Todmorden

[Ayman Ilham]

Basically, if I wanted to use an any-permitted ticket (specifically a season ticket) between Cherry Tree (my new local station - nearest routeing point being Blackburn) and Manchester, I wanted to verify whether going via Todmorden (i.e. the scenic route) is a permitted route (I already know going via Blackburn-Bolton and via Preston are both valid on the season ticket but via Todmorden is uncertain), as Manchester Group to Blackburn only shows MH, which shows the route via Bolton only. However, the MH map shows Accrington as a 'routeing point', so does that mean Accrington to Manchester Group also applies with the MH? That would then allow BM+DP which means the Todmorden route in this case. Screenshots shown below of the relevant routeing information (maps and yellow page entries).

 

[Haywain]

Although Accrington appears on map MH, it is not a valid routeing point for Cherry Tree, so you would not be able to travel via Todmorden unless it was on a direct train between Cherry Tree and Manchester Victoria.

 

[Alex365Dash]

However, the MH map shows Accrington as a 'routeing point', so does that mean Accrington to Manchester Group also applies with the MH? That would then allow BM+DP which means the Todmorden route in this case. Screenshots shown below of the relevant routeing information (maps and yellow page entries).

Accrington isn’t an associated Routeing Point for Cherry Tree, so all mapped routes to/from Accrington can be ignored.
As the only traceable route on map MH from Blackburn is via Bolton, you won’t be able to travel via Todmorden unless it’s on a direct train as it isn’t the shortest route (or 3 miles within) by train.

 

[Ayman Ilham]

Accrington isn’t an associated Routeing Point for Cherry Tree, so all mapped routes to/from Accrington can be ignored.
As the only traceable route on map MH from Blackburn is via Bolton, you won’t be able to travel via Todmorden unless it’s on a direct train as it isn’t the shortest route (or 3 miles within) by train.

Although Accrington appears on map MH, it is not a valid routeing point for Cherry Tree, so you would not be able to travel via Todmorden unless it was on a direct train between Cherry Tree and Manchester Victoria.

Cheers for the info

 

[Watershed]

Basically, if I wanted to use an any-permitted ticket (specifically a season ticket) between Cherry Tree (my new local station - nearest routeing point being Blackburn) and Manchester, I wanted to verify whether going via Todmorden (i.e. the scenic route) is a permitted route (I already know going via Blackburn-Bolton and via Preston are both valid on the season ticket but via Todmorden is uncertain), as Manchester Group to Blackburn only shows MH, which shows the route via Bolton only. However, the MH map shows Accrington as a 'routeing point', so does that mean Accrington to Manchester Group also applies with the MH? That would then allow BM+DP which means the Todmorden route in this case. Screenshots shown below of the relevant routeing information (maps and yellow page entries).

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I think you may have slightly the wrong end of the stick here.

When it comes to determining mapped routes, you must first find the appropriate Routeing Points. In this case, Blackburn and Preston are the RPs associated with Cherry Tree. Manchester Victoria is a member of the Manchester RP Group.

Blackburn passes the fares check but Preston fails it, as the fare from Preston to Manchester was higher than the fare from Cherry Tree to Manchester in NFM64 (1996). Therefore we can only use mapped routes from Blackburn to Manchester, and we cannot pass through Preston (even if this happens to be on a map from Blackburn to Manchester) as Preston has failed the fares check.

You can only use the maps indicated in the Yellow Pages as applying between the relevant RPs - in the case of Blackburn to Manchester, the only map is MH. It's irrelevant which maps you could use from other RPs that feature on map MH - the Routeing Guide isn't recursive in that way.

As you can't trace a mapped route from Blackburn to Manchester via Accrington and Todmorden on map MH, it's not a mapped route.

To be honest, I can't see any point to having separate "via Bromley Cross" and "Any Permitted" fares for this journey, seeing as the only permitted route appears to be via Bromley Cross, even on the Any Permitted fare. There are more expensive "via Preston" single and return fares to allow travel that way (but unfortunately no season tickets).

 

[Haywain]

To be honest, I can't see any point to having separate "via Bromley Cross" and "Any Permitted" fares for this journey, seeing as the only permitted route appears to be via Bromley Cross, even on the Any Permitted fare.

That was my interpretation too but not with your level of confidence!

 

[Mcr Warrior]

...you would not be able to travel via Todmorden unless it was on a direct train between Cherry Tree and Manchester Victoria.

Are there ever any?

Trains calling at Cherry Tree only ever seem to be bound for Blackburn/Colne or Preston/Blackpool N/S.

 

[Haywain]

Are there ever any?

Trains calling at Cherry Tree only ever seem to be bound for Blackburn/Colne or Preston/Blackpool N/S.

Probably not but it was easier to type that than look it up, and timetables do change.

 

[Watershed]

Are there ever any?

Trains calling at Cherry Tree only ever seem to be bound for Blackburn/Colne or Preston/Blackpool N/S.

Don't think so. Services via the Todmorden Curve only started running again a few years ago, and have always started at Blackburn AFAIK.

 

[CE142]

Don't think so. Services via the Todmorden Curve only started running again a few years ago, and have always started at Blackburn AFAIK.

Correct, since Todmorden Curve opened the service has always started/terminated at Blackburn.

 

[Ayman Ilham]

I think you may have slightly the wrong end of the stick here.

When it comes to determining mapped routes, you must first find the appropriate Routeing Points. In this case, Blackburn and Preston are the RPs associated with Cherry Tree. Manchester Victoria is a member of the Manchester RP Group.

Blackburn passes the fares check but Preston fails it, as the fare from Preston to Manchester was higher than the fare from Cherry Tree to Manchester in NFM64 (1996). Therefore we can only use mapped routes from Blackburn to Manchester, and we cannot pass through Preston (even if this happens to be on a map from Blackburn to Manchester) as Preston has failed the fares check.

You can only use the maps indicated in the Yellow Pages as applying between the relevant RPs - in the case of Blackburn to Manchester, the only map is MH. It's irrelevant which maps you could use from other RPs that feature on map MH - the Routeing Guide isn't recursive in that way.

As you can't trace a mapped route from Blackburn to Manchester via Accrington and Todmorden on map MH, it's not a mapped route.

To be honest, I can't see any point to having separate "via Bromley Cross" and "Any Permitted" fares for this journey, seeing as the only permitted route appears to be via Bromley Cross, even on the Any Permitted fare. There are more expensive "via Preston" single and return fares to allow travel that way (but unfortunately no season tickets).

Hmm interesting, cos my sister's been using her season ticket to Manchester (going to uni) for the past month (Any Permitted) and always changes train at Preston for the faster services to Oxford Rd / Piccadilly with no issues. Also, the "any permitted" from Cherry Tree does show validity via Preston based on the suggested journeys when you go to buy a ticket, so that is likely an exception to that general rule. However, we can definitely establish via Todmorden (which I was asking about in the first place) is ruled out.

 

[Watershed]

Hmm interesting, cos my sister's been using her season ticket to Manchester (going to uni) for the past month (Any Permitted) and always changes train at Preston for the faster services to Oxford Rd / Piccadilly with no issues. Also, the "any permitted" from Cherry Tree does show validity via Preston based on the suggested journeys when you go to buy a ticket, so that is likely an exception to that general rule. However, we can definitely establish via Todmorden (which I was asking about in the first place) is ruled out.

Where are you seeing validity via Preston on an Any Permitted fare? All the booking engines I looked at, from a quick perusal, correctly say that the via Preston fare is needed to go that way - e.g. see NRE.

The fact that your sister hasn't encountered issues yet is no guarantee that she won't do so in the future!

 

[APT618S]

Where are you seeing validity via Preston on an Any Permitted fare? All the booking engines I looked at, from a quick perusal, correctly say that the via Preston fare is needed to go that way - e.g. see NRE.

The fact that your sister hasn't encountered issues yet is no guarantee that she won't do so in the future!

If you put the destination as Manchester Stns and via Preston you get the £12.10 any permitted single rather than the £11.70 via Bromley Cross Ticket:

Welcome to the Official source for UK trains | National Rail

You've found the gateway to Britain's national rail network. The portal to rail travel, including train times information, fares enquiries; promotions; and ticket info.

m.nationalrail.co.uk

 

[Haywain]

If you put the destination as Manchester Stns and via Preston you get the £12.10 any permitted single rather than the £11.70 via Bromley Cross Ticket:

But that ticket isn't routed Any Permitted, it's routed via Preston.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

If you put the destination as Manchester Stns and via Preston you get the £12.10 any permitted single rather than the £11.70 via Bromley Cross Ticket:

Welcome to the Official source for UK trains | National Rail

You've found the gateway to Britain's national rail network. The portal to rail travel, including train times information, fares enquiries; promotions; and ticket info.

m.nationalrail.co.uk

But that ticket isn't routed Any Permitted, it's routed via Preston.

Surely a Cherry Tree -> Manchester Stns (route via Preston) Anytime Day Single is £18.00 (or £16.60 for an Off Peak Day Single).

So is the cheaper "Any Permitted" ticket ever valid via Preston if there is also a higher priced Route "via Preston" ticket?

 

[Watershed]

If you put the destination as Manchester Stns and via Preston you get the £12.10 any permitted single rather than the £11.70 via Bromley Cross Ticket:

Welcome to the Official source for UK trains | National Rail

You've found the gateway to Britain's national rail network. The portal to rail travel, including train times information, fares enquiries; promotions; and ticket info.

m.nationalrail.co.uk

This route is only offered this weekend, as the rail replacement buses are deemed to have no mileage and the itinerary is thus seen as shorter than the (normal) shortest oute. On a normal day when trains are running, you are (correctly) told that you must use multiple tickets to travel via Preston.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

On a normal day when trains are running, you are (correctly) told that you must use multiple tickets to travel via Preston.

Why multiple tickets and not just the higher-priced Route "via Preston" fares?

 

[APT618S]

This route is only offered this weekend, as the rail replacement buses are deemed to have no mileage and the itinerary is thus seen as shorter than the (normal) shortest oute. On a normal day when trains are running, you are (correctly) told that you must use multiple tickets to travel via Preston.

Thanks, very interesting. So if you have any season ticket does this mean in theory you should have a valid itinerary for every single day you travel

 

[kieron]

Basically, if I wanted to use an any-permitted ticket (specifically a season ticket) between Cherry Tree (my new local station - nearest routeing point being Blackburn) and Manchester, I wanted to verify whether going via Todmorden (i.e. the scenic route) is a permitted route

If you wanted a ticket which was valid via Todmorden, you could buy (or change a season ticket over to) something like a Cherry Tree-Rochdale season ticket, which is valid via Manchester or Todmorden for the same price as a Manchester ticket. There are tickets which are valid via Preston, but I think you'd have to pay more for that route.