Chester - Liverpool Merseyrail Services

[Turbo004]

I’m lucky enough to live close to the Chester - Liverpool line and can see the services from my house. For the last 2 Sunday’s Merseyrail have run 6 car services between Chester and Liverpool. On weekdays including today when they are only running an hourly service the trains have been 3 car services. Does anyone know why?

 

[M28361M]

According to their temporary timetable, they should be running a half-hourly service Monday-Saturday, unless something has gone wrong.

Merseyrail are short of stock at the moment, reportedly due to a maintenance backlog. Units with faults or due to have routine exams are still waiting for depot attention because many staff are self-isolating and unavailable for work.

There is a thread in the COVID-19 subforum where this has been discussed: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/merseyrail-emergency-coronavirus-timetable.202317/

 

[Bow Fell]

On a Sunday there is a 29 minute turnaround at Chester. And only 1tph between Hooton and Liverpool. Ellesmere Port line is a shuttle.

Mon-Sat there is the usual 4 minute turnaround time, it’s been proven time and again 6 cars on the Chester line don’t work, heavy loadings (obviously not the case now) which means they lose time and turnaround time at Chester is very tight with a 6 car to change ends, set up the cab etc.

Recently the preference is 6 cars in the Ellesmere Port line as it still provides the capacity on the core Hooton-Liverpool section.

 

[Turbo004]

On a Sunday there is a 29 minute turnaround at Chester. And only 1tph between Hooton and Liverpool. Ellesmere Port line is a shuttle.

Mon-Sat there is the usual 4 minute turnaround time, it’s been proven time and again 6 cars on the Chester line don’t work, heavy loadings (obviously not the case now) which means they lose time and turnaround time at Chester is very tight with a 6 car to change ends, set up the cab etc.

Recently the preference is 6 cars in the Ellesmere Port line as it still provides the capacity on the core Hooton-Liverpool section.

Thank you Bow Fell. That solves the mystery for me.

 

[Statto]

On a Sunday there is a 29 minute turnaround at Chester. And only 1tph between Hooton and Liverpool. Ellesmere Port line is a shuttle.

Mon-Sat there is the usual 4 minute turnaround time, it’s been proven time and again 6 cars on the Chester line don’t work, heavy loadings (obviously not the case now) which means they lose time and turnaround time at Chester is very tight with a 6 car to change ends, set up the cab etc.

Recently the preference is 6 cars in the Ellesmere Port line as it still provides the capacity on the core Hooton-Liverpool section.

I've been saying for ages turnaround time at Chester is ridiculous, it doesn't take much for a train to be running late on such a busy line, which then has a knock on effect as subsequent departures are then late, so the train ends up skip stopping to make up time, it doesn't help Merseyrail has one platform to turn around at Chester without interfering with other movements, Chester could do with another platform on the sidings opposite P7 for Merseyrail, but those sidings are used.

 

[edwin_m]

I've been saying for ages turnaround time at Chester is ridiculous, it doesn't take much for a train to be running late on such a busy line, which then has a knock on effect as subsequent departures are then late, so the train ends up skip stopping to make up time, it doesn't help Merseyrail has one platform to turn around at Chester without interfering with other movements, Chester could do with another platform on the sidings opposite P7 for Merseyrail, but those sidings are used.

The problem is that there is no turnaround time in Liverpool as the train just makes short stops at the Loop stations. The minimum time to get from Chester round the Loop and back to Chester is fixed by the train performance and necessary dwell times, and this figure determines the turnaround at Chester before the next departure is due. It might be possible to diagram trains from Chester to go to one of the other Wirral lines on their way out from Liverpool and even out the turnarounds a bit that way, but that risks the whole service collapsing if there is a problem on one route.

A second electrified platform at Chester, and one extra train in service, would allow the turnaround to be increased to 19min, with both platforms occupied for 4min in every 15min. However the new stock should save several minutes on the journey so ought to increase the turnaround to a more workable figure.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A second electrified platform at Chester, and one extra train in service, would allow the turnaround to be increased to 19min, with both platforms occupied for 4min in every 15min. However the new stock should save several minutes on the journey so ought to increase the turnaround to a more workable figure.

It could be done without the extra platform. Instead of working Chester-Chester, instead interwork it with one of the other Wirral Line branches, and increase the layover to say 13 minutes. Ormskirk is back punctual now that's happened there (in that case by *removing* the interworking with the Kirkbys).

 

[Ianno87]

It could be done without the extra platform. Instead of working Chester-Chester, instead interwork it with one of the other Wirral Line branches, and increase the layover to say 13 minutes. Ormskirk is back punctual now that's happened there (in that case by *removing* the interworking with the Kirkbys).

Careful not to mess it up too much.

One neat aspect of the current timetable is that the Bidston East Jn - Loop - Bidston East Jn is near exactly 30 minutes. So a train heading towards West Kirby parallel moves with the train from West Kirby 30 minutes behind it heading into Liverpool (as do New Brighton trains), very neat for performance and use of capacity. And you get 10 minute turnround times at both West Kirby and New Brighton.

Any other pattern is probably worse in this respect.

 

[prod_pep]

The Wirral Line always used to be worked in an interworking pattern but this method of operation ceased in 2001 (September IIRC). One of the reasons given at the time for self-containing all branches was lessening the knock-on effect to other services. The pattern was latterly New Brighton - Liverpool - West Kirby - Liverpool - either Chester or Ellesmere Port.

Ormskirk only interworked with Kirkby during evenings and Sundays. It was not the case on weekdays.

Six cars on the Ellesmere Port line is simply a ridiculous waste of resources.

 

[Statto]

The old interworking used to be handy too, used to cycle from home then down the Wirral Way, West Kirby-Hooton with a mate, get the train at Hooton & back to home & stay on the train around the loop rather than getting off at Hamilton Square which would have been the same train anyway.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ormskirk only interworked with Kirkby during evenings and Sundays. It was not the case on weekdays.

So presumably they just added another unit into the Ormskirk line diagrams? Either way it worked, it's quite reliable again.

5 minutes at Chester is simply not enough layover, and as there is only one platform the only workable way to fix that is by interworking with something else that is also on a 15 minute pattern (so Ellesmere Port doesn't work).

I get the problems of interworking (crikey, I shout enough against LNR doing it), but fundamentally the Chester service at the moment is broken.

 

[prod_pep]

So presumably they just added another unit into the Ormskirk line diagrams?

5 minutes at Chester is simply not enough layover, and as there is only one platform the only workable way to fix that is by interworking with something else that is also on a 15 minute pattern (so Ellesmere Port doesn't work).

They did add a sixth unit to the Ormskirk line due to Maghull North. An issue with the current Ormskirk line operation is excessive padding time to accommodate the sixth unit. I always found it acceptably reliable before the change anyway: the Southport line train sometimes delayed the Ormskirk at Central (Southport trains departed two minutes prior to the Ormskirk), but the time was usually made back by Maghull. The current service is painfully slow by comparison.

It might be possible to reinstate some form of interworking on the Wirral Line but the previous problems would resurface. A track defect on one branch often cocked up the entire Wirral Line.

A possible alternative is for some Chester trains to skip stations in addition to Capenhurst, i.e. one or two of the lesser used stations on this line. I maintain that six trains per hour is excessive on this corridor off-peak, as no intermediate station from Birkenhead Central onwards sees over a million passengers consistently.

The entry to service of the new trains is likely to help as well, with the much better performance we've been promised leading to longer turnarounds at Chester, rendering the current issue moot.

 

[Statto]

The ideal scenario would be to build another platform at Chester on the sidings, but the issue there is the sidings are used, & i can't see Wirral Line interworking happening anytime soon, as said only needs one incident & it fouls up the whole of the Wirral Line.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The leaf-fall timetable solves the Chester problem by adding another unit into the loop and adding 5 minutes to the Birkenhead-Chester running time.
You then have a longer turnround at Chester (10 minutes), with the incoming unit pausing outside the TfW depot until the previous service has left P7.
This extra unit must come from somewhere, possibly the one which otherwise parks up at Birkenhead Central off-peak.
It seems to work, but you have an extended journey time.
Northbound, trains wait 2 minutes at Rock Ferry and 3 minutes at Birkenhead Central, which is recovery time for poor rail conditions.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A possible alternative is for some Chester trains to skip stations in addition to Capenhurst, i.e. one or two of the lesser used stations on this line. I maintain that six trains per hour is excessive on this corridor off-peak, as no intermediate station from Birkenhead Central onwards sees over a million passengers consistently.

Could it be viable to return it to 4tph but have portions running to Ellesmere Port off 2 of them?

The logic would really be to rebuild Hooton to a large island with a bay (there's tons of room to do that) and make Ellesmere Port a shuttle (perhaps even a through one to Helsby with a battery fitted unit), but that would be politically unpalatable.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The leaf-fall timetable solves the Chester problem by adding another unit into the loop and adding 5 minutes to the Birkenhead-Chester running time.
You then have a longer turnround at Chester (10 minutes), with the incoming unit pausing outside the TfW depot until the previous service has left P7.
This extra unit must come from somewhere, possibly the one which otherwise parks up at Birkenhead Central off-peak.
It seems to work, but you have an extended journey time.
Northbound, trains wait 2 minutes at Rock Ferry and 3 minutes at Birkenhead Central, which is recovery time for poor rail conditions.

Yes, I agree that this works too, but the PTE were moaning, I believe, about the slower (but more reliable) running. I'm sure I recall reading that Merseyrail wanted to run that timetable all year but the PTE won't let them.

 

[prod_pep]

Yes, I agree that this works too, but the PTE were moaning, I believe, about the slower (but more reliable) running. I'm sure I recall reading that Merseyrail wanted to run that timetable all year but the PTE won't let them.

If so, I think the PTE has a point. Even in the height of the leaf fall, the majority of journeys are not sufficiently impacted to require so much padding time, making many journeys slower. There are often complaints that the revised timetable is less useful for connecting journeys at Chester also. The solution can't always be slowing everything down.

It will be interesting to see if the new trains perform well enough to not require a leaf fall timetable.

 

[Llandudno]

They did add a sixth unit to the Ormskirk line due to Maghull North. An issue with the current Ormskirk line operation is excessive padding time to accommodate the sixth unit. I always found it acceptably reliable before the change anyway: the Southport line train sometimes delayed the Ormskirk at Central (Southport trains departed two minutes prior to the Ormskirk), but the time was usually made back by Maghull. The current service is painfully slow by comparison.

It might be possible to reinstate some form of interworking on the Wirral Line but the previous problems would resurface. A track defect on one branch often cocked up the entire Wirral Line.

A possible alternative is for some Chester trains to skip stations in addition to Capenhurst, i.e. one or two of the lesser used stations on this line. I maintain that six trains per hour is excessive on this corridor off-peak, as no intermediate station from Birkenhead Central onwards sees over a million passengers consistently.

The entry to service of the new trains is likely to help as well, with the much better performance we've been promised leading to longer turnarounds at Chester, rendering the current issue moot.

The secret to Merseyrail is simplicity. All trains, all stations clock face timetable.
Northern and TfW North Wales passengers must be in awe of such a straight forward, easy to remember, turn up and go timetable.

Lightly used Capenhurst in Cheshire is currently the only exception, but this might be resolved with the new trains?

 

[Ianno87]

So presumably they just added another unit into the Ormskirk line diagrams? Either way it worked, it's quite reliable again.

5 minutes at Chester is simply not enough layover, and as there is only one platform the only workable way to fix that is by interworking with something else that is also on a 15 minute pattern (so Ellesmere Port doesn't work).

I get the problems of interworking (crikey, I shout enough against LNR doing it), but fundamentally the Chester service at the moment is broken.

Almost certainly makes more sense now to hold out for the new trains to reduce the journey time/intermediate dwell times and buy back a robust turnround time.

Could it be viable to return it to 4tph but have portions running to Ellesmere Port off 2 of them?

No. The extra time required for the split would mess up the 15 minute and platform occupation even pattern at Chester, and the Ellesmere Port portion (assuming it departed second from Hooton) would spend so long at Hooton it could've otherwise got to Ellesmere Port in the same length of time. It'll make an already slow journey even slower.

Plus demand from/to Chester easily justifies the whole train length going there.

 

[Statto]

The secret to Merseyrail is simplicity. All trains, all stations clock face timetable.
Northern and TfW North Wales passengers must be in awe of such a straight forward, easy to remember, turn up and go timetable.

Lightly used Capenhurst in Cheshire is currently the only exception, but this might be resolved with the new trains?

That's certainly true, in normal times i know the times of the trains at my local Merseyrail station by heart, & i cannot remember the last time my line had a timetable change, times have been the same for 30 plus years.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's certainly true, in normal times i know the times of the trains at my local Merseyrail station by heart, & i cannot remember the last time my line had a timetable change, times have been the same for 30 plus years.

There has been some pratting with it, for example last time I checked the Southport line wasn't perfect Takt. The Ormskirk and Kirkby lines I think are, though.

I'm not totally sure the 4tph to Chester was the right way to go to be honest. They should perhaps have stuck with 2 but made them all 6-car. No going back now though.

 

[BenW390Fan]

There has been some pratting with it, for example last time I checked the Southport line wasn't perfect Takt. The Ormskirk and Kirkby lines I think are, though.

I'm not totally sure the 4tph to Chester was the right way to go to be honest. They should perhaps have stuck with 2 but made them all 6-car. No going back now though.

I wouldn't think so, I too live local to it and the 15 minute frequency is good. A 3 car set can have all of it's seats taken up for the whole journey, especially in the summer.

 

[Llandudno]

There has been some pratting with it, for example last time I checked the Southport line wasn't perfect Takt. The Ormskirk and Kirkby lines I think are, though.

I'm not totally sure the 4tph to Chester was the right way to go to be honest. They should perhaps have stuck with 2 but made them all 6-car. No going back now though.

15 minute frequency definitely justified on the Chester leg, there is just too much leisure traffic about, then there is football, Chester races plus numerous events taking place in Liverpool (and Chester to a lesser degree) all year round.

The 15 minute headway helps with connections at Chester, as it doesn’t matter from where you come from you have no more than 14 minutes to wait for the next Liverpool train.

Mind you when TfW eventually get round to running through trains from Llandudno and Shrewsbury to Liverpool Lime Street then fewer people will have to change at Chester.

 

[Llandudno]

There has been some pratting with it, for example last time I checked the Southport line wasn't perfect Takt. The Ormskirk and Kirkby lines I think are, though.

I'm not totally sure the 4tph to Chester was the right way to go to be honest. They should perhaps have stuck with 2 but made them all 6-car. No going back now though.

There have been very few changes to Merseyrail train times in recent years this gives the public confidence in using the network, it is also pretty damn reliable as well, as well as cheap!

Bus routes, service numbers and timetables on the other hand....

 

[prod_pep]

I agree the 4 trains per hour frequency is justified on the Chester line; in fact, it is the busiest of the Wirral Line branches by a distance.

If anything was the mistake, it was electrifying to Ellesmere Port in the first place. In hindsight, it really hasn't been a success story. I don't wish to cause any offence, but the loadings are so small that a Hooton to Ellesmere Port shuttle would be entirely justified off-peak.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree the 4 trains per hour frequency is justified on the Chester line; in fact, it is the busiest of the Wirral Line branches by a distance.

If anything was the mistake, it was electrifying to Ellesmere Port in the first place. In hindsight, it really hasn't been a success story. I don't wish to cause any offence, but the loadings are so small that a Hooton to Ellesmere Port shuttle would be entirely justified off-peak.

If anyone wants to delve into that aspect, I created a thread for it a while ago which is still open:

Should the Ellesmere Port line have been electrified?

I think it would need a big scheme - ie electrification as part of really pushing the redevelopment of Stanlow as a business/research/office park and maybe some more housing in Elton. Would need decent connections into Liverpool and Manchester trains at Helsby though.

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Ianno87]

I agree the 4 trains per hour frequency is justified on the Chester line; in fact, it is the busiest of the Wirral Line branches by a distance.

If anything was the mistake, it was electrifying to Ellesmere Port in the first place. In hindsight, it really hasn't been a success story. I don't wish to cause any offence, but the loadings are so small that a Hooton to Ellesmere Port shuttle would be entirely justified off-peak.

4tph to Chester may be the only part of the Wirral lines that actually makes profit money rather than cart fresh air to the ends of the branches most of the day.

 

[Camden]

4tph to Chester may be the only part of the Wirral lines that actually makes profit money rather than cart fresh air to the ends of the branches most of the day.

Pretty sure the New Brighton branch is also busy throughout. A key point though in all this is connectivity. If you take a system branch by branch and shut them down in whole or part until you are left with the ones that make the profit, you a) don't have a system and b) likely don't have profit anymore either.

It is in fact a peculiarity enjoyed by the Merseyrail system that at the end of some branches there is a place of considerable draw. On the underground, many trains "cart fresh air" to the ends of the branches.

What is also interesting about Merseyrail is that it is an incomplete system, with other places of potential draw - or at least inbound & outbound business - lying just beyond where the third rail currently stops. The potential for increasing profitability through investment, rather than a race to the bottom, is there.

 

[Ianno87]

Pretty sure the New Brighton branch is also busy throughout. A key point though in all this is connectivity. If you take a system branch by branch and shut them down in whole or part until you are left with the ones that make the profit, you a) don't have a system and b) likely don't have profit anymore either.

It is in fact a peculiarity enjoyed by the Merseyrail system that at the end of some branches there is a place of considerable draw. On the underground, many trains "cart fresh air" to the ends of the branches.

What is also interesting about Merseyrail is that it is an incomplete system, with other places of potential draw - or at least inbound & outbound business - lying just beyond where the third rail currently stops. The potential for increasing profitability through investment, rather than a race to the bottom, is there.

I'm not suggesting shutting down anything nor am I starting yet another Liverpool vs rest of the UK debate.

I'm stating there is a clear commercial case for operating 4tph rather than 2tph to Chester as the extra revenue generated would be quite sizeable. And the all day demand is probably, along with Southport, the most buoyant of all branches in terms of serving non-Liverpool demand (so trains don't "empty out" as much as other routes do towards the end)

New Brighton is at least a short branch so is cheap to operate without much scope for "emptying out".

 

[Bletchleyite]

Even the Ormskirk line has *some* filling up towards Ormskirk, though most of this is from Town Green and Aughton Park, and mostly school traffic (which is considerable but peaky; there are no school buses from Aughton, the railway is paid to carry the traffic instead) and older people (many of whom will have switched to bus as it's free and runs a bit of a loop of Aughton so is more door-to-door). And for Kirkby the demand is mostly "all the way" anyway.

Maghull North has changed the basis of this, but I did long wonder why half the trains didn't turn back at Maghull as that's when things start getting really busy - I haven't checked but I'd be surprised if Maghull wasn't the busiest station on the branch. This is very different from the other branch that goes outside the PTE area (Chester, so back on topic) because Hooton, the boundary station, is basically in the middle of a field.