Chester to Liverpool/Manchester Engineering Works 13th - 19th Novmember

[FrodshamJnct]

Morning all, does anyone know what work is taking place in and around Chester/Helsby/Runcorn East from 13th - 19th November?



Image describing the engineering work taking place between Chester and Liverpool/Manchester from 13th to the 19th November 2023.

 

[The Planner]

Morning all, does anyone know what work is taking place in and around Chester/Helsby/Runcorn East from 13th - 19th November?

View attachment 146119

Image describing the engineering work taking place between Chester and Liverpool/Manchester from 13th to the 19th November 2023.

Work on bridges. No 63 and 64 at Warford.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Would these be the metal bridges over the River Gowy and Barrow Brook, north of Mickle Trafford?

 

[The Planner]

Would these be the metal bridges over the River Gowy and Barrow Brook, north of Mickle Trafford?

No, other side of Runcorn East, looks like Keckwick Brook and the bridge to the south of it.

 

[chesterred16]

Typical, I'm travelling from Bache to Manchester on 17th. Are Chester/Manchester anytime returns still valid via Crewe? They used to be I'm sure.
Alternatively is it an option to go via Lime Street and across that way?

 

[pokemonsuper9]

It looks like even without having to deal with the bridge the replacement busses still aren't going to Stanlow and Thornton

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:s06427/2023-11-17/detailed

Typical, I'm travelling from Bache to Manchester on 17th. Are Chester/Manchester anytime returns still valid via Crewe? They used to be I'm sure.
Alternatively is it an option to go via Lime Street and across that way?

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Doing a no-splits search it does seem that the Anytime Return is valid via Liverpool, Altrincham or Crewe.

 

[jfollows]

Bache to Manchester is valid via Chester using three maps (https://data.atoc.org/routeing-maps):
JG Chester, Warrington, Chat Moss
JO Chester, Warrington, Chat Moss (essentially the same)
but these are affected by the engineering works of course, leaving
MJ Altrincham or Crewe
Hooton and Liverpool shouldn't be valid because of the fare rule but if you get a supporting itinerary then it's valid; without the fare rule then maps NO and NR apply which are both routes Liverpool-Manchester.

(EDIT Chester and Hooton are the defined "routeing points" for Bache, and you can use either, and Hooton effectively means via Liverpool, but the fare rule disallows this because Hooton to Manchester is more expensive than Bache to Manchester in NFM64. Hooton to Manchester is valid via Liverpool, so to be technically correct you could get a Hooton-Manchester ticket and supplement it with a Bache-Hooton ticket for each occasion you wanted to go via Liverpool.)

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Typical, I'm travelling from Bache to Manchester on 17th. Are Chester/Manchester anytime returns still valid via Crewe? They used to be I'm sure.
Alternatively is it an option to go via Lime Street and across that way?

They certainly are valid via Crewe (off peak returns too), but not via Liverpool. You can go via Northwich as well.
A Cheshire Day Ranger works well if you go after 0900 (and valid via Liverpool).

 

[8A Rail]

Work on bridges. No 63 and 64 at Warford.

You mean Wharford. Warford is east of Knutsford.

No, other side of Runcorn East, looks like Keckwick Brook and the bridge to the south of it.

Interesting, so I assume there must be other work going on the line as why would that stop TfW operating a service to and from Chester to Liverpool, or is it the usual excuse of cancelling trains altogether because it is an easy option?

 

[Kite159]

I hope Northern make sure their Chester - Manchester via Northwich are doubled up 150s to soak up the extra passengers who want to avoid the replacement buses. No doubt they will run the usual single 150s which will be cosy after the first couple of stops leaving passengers behind the closer it gets to Manchester.

Shame TfW no longer sign the diversion route via Northwich as they could have run something that way to help soak up passengers, paths permitting.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Shame TfW no longer sign the diversion route via Northwich as they could have run something that way to help soak up passengers, paths permitting.

Are 197s even cleared that way?
175s worked the CLC route for over 20 years under various TOC brands, but none left now...

 

[The Planner]

You mean Wharford. Warford is east of Knutsford.

Interesting, so I assume there must be other work going on the line as why would that stop TfW operating a service to and from Chester to Liverpool, or is it the usual excuse of cancelling trains altogether because it is an easy option?

I fully expect the maintainer and delivery units are taking advantage of the blocks. As for the trains, no idea, ask TfW and Northern.

 

[northwichcat]

I hope Northern make sure their Chester - Manchester via Northwich are doubled up 150s to soak up the extra passengers who want to avoid the replacement buses. No doubt they will run the usual single 150s which will be cosy after the first couple of stops leaving passengers behind the closer it gets to Manchester.

One of the 4 diagrams on the Mid-Cheshire is booked as 4 car but guards are known to keep the rear carriage locked out-of-use for the entire journey duration - https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/misleading-cis-regarding-number-of-train-carriages.256861/

The 06:49 Chester-Manchester, 14:56 Chester-Manchester and 17:10 Manchester-Chester are booked as doubled up sets and they get very busy normally. If the rear carriage remains locked out-of-use I wouldn't be surprised if it leaves passengers behind, while having an entire carriage unoccupied! Northern could also help by ensuring they don't press the delete button on the peak time Chester-Stockport services in their 'short notice timetable'.

The number of doubled up sets on Saturdays varies from one weekend to the next. On Sundays all services should be operated by doubled up sets, but the frequency is only 2 hourly.

Could TfW operate Manchester Airport to Warrington as normal? Are they not doing because their crews will be the wrong side of the closure?

 

[Kite159]

Could TfW operate Manchester Airport to Warrington as normal? Are they not doing because their crews will be the wrong side of the closure?

Probably it's been put in the "too hard" pile, if it was in Wales it might be different.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Can't Northern put an extra train to Stockport on via Altrincham? Sunday 19th therefore being every two hours to Manchester and every two hours to Stockport. Changing in Stockport is no biggie as it's the same platform or at least the same piece of concrete.

 

[northwichcat]

Can't Northern put an extra train to Stockport on via Altrincham? Sunday 19th therefore being every two hours to Manchester and every two hours to Stockport. Changing in Stockport is no biggie as it's the same platform or at least the same piece of concrete.

I don't see why TfW Rail aren't running a Sunday service to Manchester Airport via Northwich. Arriva Trains Wales used to do that on Sundays whenever Chester-Warrington line was closed. I have noticed the overnight Chester to Manchester Airport service now seems to run via Warrington (instead of non-stop via Northwich) and it doesn't run during engineering works, so maybe TfW Rail can't be bothered with crews retaining route knowledge of the Northwich line?

Network Rail may not want half-hourly Northwich to Manchester on weekdays. However, on Sundays other lines run at reduced frequency compared to weekdays, so there should be no issue with half-hourly Chester-Northwich-Manchester, nevermind hourly.

 

[The Planner]

I don't see why TfW Rail aren't running a Sunday service to Manchester Airport via Northwich. Arriva Trains Wales used to do that on Sundays whenever Chester-Warrington line was closed. I have noticed the overnight Chester to Manchester Airport service now seems to run via Warrington (instead of non-stop via Northwich) and it doesn't run during engineering works, so maybe TfW Rail can't be bothered with crews retaining route knowledge of the Northwich line?

Network Rail may not want half-hourly Northwich to Manchester on weekdays. However, on Sundays other lines run at reduced frequency compared to weekdays, so there should be no issue with half-hourly Chester-Northwich-Manchester, nevermind hourly.

A lot of TfW drivers have lost the mid Cheshire off their route cards is what I get told. Its not a case of them not wanting to retain it, there are other demands.

 

[Danfilm007]

I don't see why TfW Rail aren't running a Sunday service to Manchester Airport via Northwich. Arriva Trains Wales used to do that on Sundays whenever Chester-Warrington line was closed. I have noticed the overnight Chester to Manchester Airport service now seems to run via Warrington (instead of non-stop via Northwich) and it doesn't run during engineering works, so maybe TfW Rail can't be bothered with crews retaining route knowledge of the Northwich line?

Network Rail may not want half-hourly Northwich to Manchester on weekdays. However, on Sundays other lines run at reduced frequency compared to weekdays, so there should be no issue with half-hourly Chester-Northwich-Manchester, nevermind hourly.

What was the route they used to get to the Airport from the MCL? Piccadilly and reverse?

 

[Bantamzen]

I hope Northern make sure their Chester - Manchester via Northwich are doubled up 150s to soak up the extra passengers who want to avoid the replacement buses. No doubt they will run the usual single 150s which will be cosy after the first couple of stops leaving passengers behind the closer it gets to Manchester.

Shame TfW no longer sign the diversion route via Northwich as they could have run something that way to help soak up passengers, paths permitting.

I can't speak for the early morning peak services, but I often use the service from Warrington and they are usually very quiet even when its a 3 car 195.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

What was the route they used to get to the Airport from the MCL? Piccadilly and reverse?

Yes.
Aiming for the Airport you had the pleasure of more or less circling the MAN runways between Mobberley and Northenden on the way into Piccadilly, and then actually reaching the airport a good half-hour later after reversal...
Routeing via Crewe and the direct airport Northern train is a better tactic on those sorts of days.
In fact at some times of day it's quicker and "nicer" (fewer stops) anyway.

 

[8A Rail]

I fully expect the maintainer and delivery units are taking advantage of the blocks. As for the trains, no idea, ask TfW and Northern.

Sorry not up to speed on I assume 'engineering terms' but what is maintainer and delivery units please? Road / rail vehicles or something? No need to ask Northern, as the answer is already there - line closed on which they operate. As for TfW, they just like to cancel regardless is my understanding although 'it seems' access to to / from Runcorn is possible.

 

[The Planner]

Sorry not up to speed on I assume 'engineering terms' but what is maintainer and delivery units please? Road / rail vehicles or something? No need to ask Northern, as the answer is already there - line closed on which they operate. As for TfW, they just like to cancel regardless is my understanding although 'it seems' access to to / from Runcorn is possible.

Maintainer is self explanatory, they are people that go out and undertake the cyclical maintenance, inspections, patrols etc... if there is a back log of faults then this gives them the opportunity to get on track to catch up. They form part of delivery units which look after geographical areas.

 

[Danfilm007]

Yes.
Aiming for the Airport you had the pleasure of more or less circling the MAN runways between Mobberley and Northenden on the way into Piccadilly, and then actually reaching the airport a good half-hour later after reversal...
Routeing via Crewe and the direct airport Northern train is a better tactic on those sorts of days.
In fact at some times of day it's quicker and "nicer" (fewer stops) anyway.

Thanks! If only there was a convenient way of going from Northwich to Sandbach and reversing at Sandbach to go to the Airport...

 

[Jamesrob637]

Northern just need to not cancel the 06:30 Chester to Stockport and corresponding 17:08 return next week. Have Tweeted them about this too.

 

[8A Rail]

Maintainer is self explanatory, they are people that go out and undertake the cyclical maintenance, inspections, patrols etc... if there is a back log of faults then this gives them the opportunity to get on track to catch up. They form part of delivery units which look after geographical areas.

Thank you, it now makes sense.

 

[northwichcat]

Yes.
Aiming for the Airport you had the pleasure of more or less circling the MAN runways between Mobberley and Northenden on the way into Piccadilly, and then actually reaching the airport a good half-hour later after reversal...

Very indirect. However, running non-stop via Stockport at around 4am (with no other passenger trains on the line) wasn't actually slower than doing all stations from Chester to Piccadilly via Warrington. It managed to do Chester-Altrincham-Piccadilly in just over an hour.

 

[frodshamfella]

So will a bus run as far as Liverpool South Parkway, then train onwards, Merseyrail or otherwise ?

 

[jfollows]

So will a bus run as far as Liverpool South Parkway, then train onwards, Merseyrail or otherwise ?

Post 1 above?

 

[northwichcat]

Well the Chester to Stockports didn't get deleted from the timetable overnight but the 07:12 Chester to Stockport was terminated before it got to Northwich due to a train fault. The 07:56 Chester to Manchester (a 2 car 150) did lose a few minutes stopping at stations between Delamere and Hale, which may relate to the train being crowded.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Well the Chester to Stockports didn't get deleted from the timetable overnight but the 07:12 Chester to Stockport was terminated before it got to Northwich due to a train fault. The 07:56 Chester to Manchester (a 2 car 150) did lose a few minutes stopping at stations between Delamere and Hale, which may relate to the train being crowded.

At least something like a train fault is an on-the-day thing.