Chiltern abandoning West Midlands on Sunday

[sammyg901]

I don't think they have much choice - their trains are very busy on a normal weekend and attempting to just carry on and hope for the best would end in disaster. They've no way to not serve the fans, even if they skip Wembley Stadium which has been done before fans would just travel to Marylebone and double back on the tube

 

[Bletchleyite]

It would indeed, but they certainly stepped up when required on that occasion. Imagine if they'd said "OK, we'll make the York to King's Cross service more intensive, but to resource that we'll need to cancel everything between York and Newcastle".

It wouldn't quite be the same thing, though, given Chiltern's relative importance. It'd be more like "OK, we'll make the York to King's Cross service more intensive, but we'll have to cancel the Chieftain and the Aberdeen". I suspect that would be agreed.

 

[NickBucks]

Chiltern are not running any services on the Aylesbury Vale Parkway to Marylebone line this weekend so I assume that will leave a few 165 units for the "frequent high capacity trains" they are proposing .In past times such matches would have been held at 3.00 pm on a Saturday still we have to pander to the football crowd whilst ignoring anyone who wishes to travel for non football relating reasons in the West Midlands this weekend.

 

[renegademaster]

still we have to pander to the football crowd whilst ignoring anyone who wishes to travel

The point is to discourage the football crowd getting on, so they don't ruin it for everyone on the Chiltern Route south of West Midlands

 

[The Planner]

Chiltern are not running any services on the Aylesbury Vale Parkway to Marylebone line this weekend so I assume that will leave a few 165 units for the "frequent high capacity trains" they are proposing .In past times such matches would have been held at 3.00 pm on a Saturday still we have to pander to the football crowd whilst ignoring anyone who wishes to travel for non football relating reasons in the West Midlands this weekend.

Blame the authorities who determine the kick off times. Whats stopping anyone else travelling south of Warwick Parkway?

The point is to discourage the football crowd getting on, so they don't ruin it for everyone on the Chiltern Route south of West Midlands

Its not, its a resource issue.

 

[Class 170101]

That still doesn't justify cutting people in Solihull/Birmingham off from their normal links to London and other intermediate stations. Or, for that matter, making people in Leamington rely on the hourly, heavily overcrowded 4/5-car XC service to Birmingham. And (obviously the main aim) deliberately preventing Birmingham fans from having an easy journey to the stadium.

Not sure I'd be relying on XC given the shower they have been on recent Sundays cancelling trains all over the place.

 

[trundlewagon]

Its not, its a resource issue

Is running 3 an hour from Warwick Parkway really much less resource intensive than running 2 from Moor Street (especially when 8 of those trains are coming into service from Moor Street or Stourbridge...)

Seems a bit peculiar they're doing this when they've usually been pretty good at catering for West Mids teams being at Wembley in the past.

 

[david1212]

I can see Chiltern's idea for the morning but not after around 13:00 i.e. too late to arrive and be inside Wembley stadium for the kick-off. After then why not run one service an hour through to Moor Street calling at Dorridge & Solihull?
Also why not run a 2-car all stations Leamington - Moor Street shuttle every 90 minutes rather than totally abandoning local users ? There is not a bus service any day / time Leamington - Warwick - Solihull

 

[james_the_xv]

This is exactly the situation where a DFT owned 'charter' operator with ability to spot hire/own surplus stock would help with the demand

 

[HSTEd]

This is exactly the situation where a DFT owned 'charter' operator with ability to spot hire/own surplus stock would help with the demand

This might work if we had a huge uniform (BR style) Sprinter/Network Turbo style DMU fleet where big lashups could be created, but given the current mess of trains its not going to be practical at all.

 

[The Planner]

This is exactly the situation where a DFT owned 'charter' operator with ability to spot hire/own surplus stock would help with the demand

It would have to be DfT owned, as selling normal tickets on a charter causes issues I believe.

Is running 3 an hour from Warwick Parkway really much less resource intensive than running 2 from Moor Street (especially when 8 of those trains are coming into service from Moor Street or Stourbridge...)

Seems a bit peculiar they're doing this when they've usually been pretty good at catering for West Mids teams being at Wembley in the past.

Resource also means drivers and guards to Banbury too. Warwick Parkway to Moor St and back is an hour.

 

[philosopher]

I think Chaltern have an attractive product being able to call at Wembley stadium, and many will probably use the free parking facility at Warwick. It's the abandonment of all public transport services north of there after a certain time that is the travesty. Why not make an agreement with the local TOC to run a few later extra Leamington terminators in the paths not used?

What happens when the car park at Warwick Parkway gets full. I know you could continue to Leamington, but Leamington does not have that big a car park.

I could get Chiltern’s strategy if they were running replacement buses between Warwick Parkway and Dorridge and / or Birmingham Moor Street as it would provide an uplift in capacity while ensuring their network is still fully served.

 

[CyrusWuff]

What happens when the car park at Warwick Parkway gets full. I know you could continue to Leamington, but Leamington does not have that big a car park.

Warwick Parkway has overflow parking on the other side of Old Budbrooke Road from the station. Admittedly two of those are grass rather than tarmac, but the additional capacity is there.

 

[MarkyT]

What happens when the car park at Warwick Parkway gets full. I know you could continue to Leamington, but Leamington does not have that big a car park

Warwick Parkway has overflow parking on the other side of Old Budbrooke Road from the station. Admittedly two of those are grass rather than tarmac, but the additional capacity is there.

So they can use that huge grassy field beyond the last roughly tarmacked lot. That alone would nearly double capacity. Can they go further?

I could get Chiltern’s strategy if they were running replacement buses between Warwick Parkway and Dorridge and / or Birmingham Moor Street as it would provide an uplift in capacity while ensuring their network is still fully served.

I agree, and the slower journey by road, while serving local demand including longer distance non-football journeys that commence or end at the stations concerned that have had seen their sunday service summarily and arbitrarily withdrawn, would discourage people from Birmingham going that way to Wembley. I feel on the larger scale, the strategy may simply push even more people through New Street. Are there any particular special measures being proposed by other operators there?

I made a journey enquiry from Dorridge to Oxford tommorrow on National Rail. All journeys listed were routed via Birmingham but no valid fare could be found so 'please replan your journey'. Nothing after 18:27 (last train to Brum). NR Suggests the only valid fare leaving at 0:03 with a wait at Leamington Spa for nine hours! I suppose people could take a tent and camp overnight in the big field at Warwick Parkway. There's no mention of the service alterations in the national rail status and disruptions page. You have to go specifically to the Chiltern Railways site. I suppose they argue it's not engineering works or disruption so we don't need to tell any customers about such a dramatic change to the service. If you're showing up at Moor street for Dorridge as far as you're concerned its a local train. Why would you specifically check the Chiltern Railways website. I can see people arriving on long-distance journeys at Birmingham that day on return halves of open tickets, getting completely stuck after a certain time, when normally they've always been able to travel late on a Chiltern train. Have the train operators devised a strategy for dealing with that sort of thing and the human beings concerned, say for safeguarding an unaccompanied minor. Surely they wouldn't be able to simply chuck them out on the streets to fend for themselves in a city thronging with jubilant or possibly angrily defeated fans.

It appears possible to travel via Stratford on Avon by train with a replacement bus running all day on the Leamington Spa service. Doesn't help anyone wanting stations between Birmingham and Leamington though. For some people a taxi to or from the nearest Stratford line station might help reduce an expensive fare.

I note from RTT that, as there's no reversing facility at Warwick Parkway, all the reversing services have to run through as empty stock to somewhere north of there, mostly Dorridge but a few to Hatton. There a number of empty workings to Moor Street and back for reversing too and a turnover of units going to and from Stourbridge and Banbury depots. So there will be empty trains running all day and evening along the route. I expect they've been accelerated a bit, missing out all stops and maybe not needing a guard?

There's no mention of the dramatically adjusted service on the West Midlands Railways website at all even though the Chiltern services on the Leamington line form the backbone of the local service and indeed the only service normally after the early evening on a Sunday. There's an item on the Transport for West Midlands site at least, which links to the Chiltern announcements. I am flabagasted there's no mention of the whole sorry affair on the National Rail website at all.

 

[philosopher]

There's no mention of the dramatically adjusted service on the West Midlands Railways website at all even though the Chiltern services on the Leamington line form the backbone of the local service and indeed the only service normally after the early evening on a Sunday. There's an item on the Transport for West Midlands site at least, which links to the Chiltern announcements. I am flabagasted there's no mention of the whole sorry affair on the National Rail website at all.

Indeed. This is the National Website for Sunday for the 13th April for Chiltern, which makes no mention of Chiltern not running services north of Warwick Parkway which is pretty poor in my view, particularly as it would cost virtually nothing to add this information.

Find details of current incidents | National Rail

A portal into UK rail travel, including information on ticket purchase and promotions, train times and delays, and more.

www.nationalrail.co.uk

Planned engineering works​

• 
  Buses replace late night / early morning trains between Oxford and Oxford Parkway on Saturday 12 and Sunday 13 April
  
• 
  No trains between London Marylebone and Aylesbury Vale Parkway on Saturday 12 and Sunday 13 April
  (video included)

The National Rail website must be the way a large percentage of passengers get information on what service disruptions there are, so if this suspension of service is not on this site, they will think the service is running as normal.

I imagine there are going to be a large number of people turning at Solihull and Dorridge stations tomorrow expecting there to be trains to London only to suddenly find out there are none and thus be forced to either abandon their journey or having to find alternatives such as a taxi to Birmingham International or Warwick Parkway or a train to Moor Street to transfer to New Street. Those at Moor Street at least would have the option of walking 5 minutes to New Street so may not be too disrupted.

 

[Class 170101]

The more damning thing seems to be getting home where its been pointed out that Chiltern are the only operator for some stations after 19:30 on Sundays. Only this Sunday there are no trains at all.

 

[GoneSouth]

When I worked for Chiltern in the 90s they assumed that everyone could drive and had access to a car. Nothing seems to have changed. Accessibility has more than one meaning.

Yes, clearly accessibility is NOT on their priority list. WE DON’T ALL DRIVE.

You must surely know that it's not as easy as just saying it should be that way.

It certainly was in days when rolling stock was more standardised, how else did BR manage to provide ad hoc football specials and extra capacity for summer Saturdays to seaside holiday destinations. I agree times have changed, however there are now probably more large events the railway could be serving at a profit but there isn’t the will or intelligence in the business to do so.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Apr 2025 ==

The point is to discourage the football crowd getting on, so they don't ruin it for everyone on the Chiltern Route south of West Midlands

A few more strategically timed shortened services would fix that, it’s not necessary all day. If the game starts at 3, there’s no need to shorten services arriving at Marylebone after 1430

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Apr 2025 ==

They aren't.

They are if you use one of the stations not being served. How about people going into Birmingham for work?

They're saying "we could operate an inadequate service and leave people behind, or we could operate an adequate service over part of the route and offer free parking if you'd help us out by driving the quietest bit, so we'll do the latter".

Or…

We could operate an inadequate service and leave people behind, or we could operate an inadequate service over part of the route and offer free parking if you'd help us out by driving the quietest bit, and we’ll conveniently forget that the people who need trains the most, those without access to their own vehicle, actually exist.

OK, I’m being provocative, but there will be people unable to access work that day, and that’s neither fair or acceptable.

Imagine it were you who was told your journey doesn’t matter, it’s just not right.

 

[trundlewagon]

Still find it all very peculiar when, in the past, they've done pretty well catering for this kind of thing.

I guess in the past it's the sort of thing where crew would probably have been 'incentivised' to work in order to provide an enhanced service (this goes for Avanti and LNR as well, as it seems to be a piss poor effort all round) but them days seem to be gone...

 

[chiltern trev]

Its not, its a resource issue.

Is the Resource issue diesel units or staff (drivers and conductors) or both?

In the past, this level of service has been provided from Moor St and/or Snow Hill when Villa has been playing at Wembley - but I think that was pre Covid - and no mention of resource issues except longer trains not stopping at Kings Sutton.

 

[david1212]

....
I note from RTT that, as there's no reversing facility at Warwick Parkway, all the reversing services have to run through as empty stock to somewhere north of there, mostly Dorridge but a few to Hatton. There a number of empty workings to Moor Street and back for reversing too and a turnover of units going to and from Stourbridge and Banbury depots. So there will be empty trains running all day and evening along the route. I expect they've been accelerated a bit, missing out all stops and maybe not needing a guard?
....

I had presumed all the reversals would be at Hatton.
If Dorridge or through to Moor Street why not carry passengers northbound all day and southbound after around 13:00 ?

This is exactly the situation where a DFT owned 'charter' operator with ability to spot hire/own surplus stock would help with the demand

This might work if we had a huge uniform (BR style) Sprinter/Network Turbo style DMU fleet where big lashups could be created, but given the current mess of trains its not going to be practical at all.

...
It certainly was in days when rolling stock was more standardised, how else did BR manage to provide ad hoc football specials and extra capacity for summer Saturdays to seaside holiday destinations. I agree times have changed, however there are now probably more large events the railway could be serving at a profit but there isn’t the will or intelligence in the business to do so. ...

For BR far fewer concerns about stock fitting the route or staff knowledge for Mk1 or Mark 2 non-aircon stock. Rakes could be shuffled or shortened by a carriage. For around half the year a loco that could heat the stock (theoretically) required. For shorter runs and some longer ones e.g. from a thread in the history & nostalgia section Birmingham <> Blackpool once the early and non-standard units had been scrapped most 1st generation DMU's could be joined together with the limitation of 6 power cars. The stock was owned and paid for not on lease.
Staff had a wider knowledge of both routes and stock. I can only presume there always were staff happy for the opportunity to earn some overtime.

 

[6Gman]

For BR far fewer concerns about stock fitting the route or staff knowledge for Mk1 or Mark 2 non-aircon stock. Rakes could be shuffled or shortened by a carriage. For around half the year a loco that could heat the stock (theoretically) required. For shorter runs and some longer ones e.g. from a thread in the history & nostalgia section Birmingham <> Blackpool once the early and non-standard units had been scrapped most 1st generation DMU's could be joined together with the limitation of 6 power cars. The stock was owned and paid for not on lease.
Staff had a wider knowledge of both routes and stock. I can only presume there always were staff happy for the opportunity to earn some overtime.

I think that summarises it pretty well.

The days when 90% of drivers signed Class 47s, 47s could haul 99% of loco-hauled coaching stock (probably 100% but somebody will point out some oddity!), and 80% of DMUs were Blue Square so fully compatible are - sadly - long gone.

Mind you, it still seems an odd approach by Chiltern!

 

[185]

The point is to discourage the football crowd getting on, so they don't ruin it for everyone on the Chiltern Route south of West Midlands

People from Coventry, Rugby, Northamptonshire, Milton Keynes and Bedfordshire don't want the football crowd ruining their route but due to the lazy, gutless, fair weather operator owned by Arriva failing to fulfil the basics of it's DfT contract, they've got 100% of the fans dumped onto their route. Regardless of which plankton brain at the DfT sanctioned this nonsense, Chiltern should be in trouble for this.

 

[godfreycomplex]

People from Coventry, Rugby, Northamptonshire, Milton Keynes and Bedfordshire don't want the football crowd ruining their route

I'm sure the feeling is entirely mutual...

I don't disagree with the general point that this doesn't provide an optimal service to society, but my sympathies are also with those working on this day, and in the lead up to it, who will have to defend the (in many ways) indefensible, again

 

[The Planner]

Is the Resource issue diesel units or staff (drivers and conductors) or both?

In the past, this level of service has been provided from Moor St and/or Snow Hill when Villa has been playing at Wembley - but I think that was pre Covid - and no mention of resource issues except longer trains not stopping at Kings Sutton.

Both from what I was told.

 

[150219]

Yes, clearly accessibility is NOT on their priority list. WE DON’T ALL DRIVE.

It certainly was in days when rolling stock was more standardised, how else did BR manage to provide ad hoc football specials and extra capacity for summer Saturdays to seaside holiday destinations. I agree times have changed, however there are now probably more large events the railway could be serving at a profit but there isn’t the will or intelligence in the business to do so.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Apr 2025 ==


A few more strategically timed shortened services would fix that, it’s not necessary all day. If the game starts at 3, there’s no need to shorten services arriving at Marylebone after 1430

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Apr 2025 ==


They are if you use one of the stations not being served. How about people going into Birmingham for work?

Or…

We could operate an inadequate service and leave people behind, or we could operate an inadequate service over part of the route and offer free parking if you'd help us out by driving the quietest bit, and we’ll conveniently forget that the people who need trains the most, those without access to their own vehicle, actually exist.

OK, I’m being provocative, but there will be people unable to access work that day, and that’s neither fair or acceptable.

Imagine it were you who was told your journey doesn’t matter, it’s just not right.

I don't necessarily think you are being provocative, but a few of these points have already been addressed.

Irrespective of this thread, a common theme of a few others in past history generally point towards the same perceived easy solutions. These can include move carriages around, get more carriages, get more drivers, retime trains and other similar answers.

But whilst there are always different options that can be changed and tweaked, these are actually quite limited.

If we take the choice of not shortening services until a certain time. The question of diagramming is what do you do with the imbalance of formations that are weighted towards a certain time slot. A consecutive run of 8-cars for a few hours, then a few 3-cars for the remainder and then what do you do with the back workings of the 3-cars when they get to the destination at the time that the longer formations needs to be returning. I'm not expecting a full train plan to be given as the answer, but I'm trying to provide some of the general principles that make it difficult to deliver and especially when you don't know which teams will be playing the game until a certain date.

The availability of resources is a fundamental part of the plan, which can make a difference given the day of the week too.

It might be desirable to plan a 20-minute frequency of 8-car trains that don't stop at the platforms or 5-car trains that do stop everywhere. Once you've got that planned around the other trains that run, do you hope that you can get the traincrew to work it?

There's a lot of thought on the topic of existing timetabled services that are cancelled because they cannot be resourced elsewhere too.

Perhaps the only satisfactory answer is to hope to provide something that isn't realistic, but where do you go from there? Is it better to try and fail or to plan to run something there's a realistic chance of delivering?

 

[Bletchleyite]

They are if you use one of the stations not being served. How about people going into Birmingham for work?

On a Sunday? That's basically just retail and the likes, and because retail tends to be minimum wage people aren't going to be commuting from Bicester or even Warwick to Birmingham in large numbers (or at all) for that sort of work, it's normally done locally, because you start to get to the point where at about a tenner an hour your train fare wipes out half the day's pay. Closer to Birmingham they'll use the WMT Snow Hill Lines service or the bus.

 

[Jimini]

Looks like the "signalling system" has thrown its hat into the ring now as well:

Incident: Banbury | National Rail

Major disruption between Banbury and Leamington Spa expected until 12:30. Find details of all current incidents on National Rail Enquiries.

www.nationalrail.co.uk

Route(s) affected​

Chiltern Railways between London Marylebone and Banbury / Warwick Parkway

CrossCountry between Eastleigh / Reading and Wolverhampton

Description​

A fault with the signalling system between Banbury and Leamington Spa means trains running between these stations may be delayed by up to 60 minutes or cancelled.

Major disruption is expected until 12:30.

Chiltern Railways customer advice:

Tickets will be accepted on the following services at no extra cost:

• Avanti West Coast between Coventry, Milton Keynes Central and London Euston
• CrossCountry between Coventry, Leamington Spa, Banbury, Oxford and Reading
• West Midlands Railway / London Northwestern Railway between Leamington Spa, Coventry, Milton Keynes Central and London Euston

 

[dmu fan]

As someone who is visiting high wycombe from Birmingham moor street, for a theatre show in June, what are the chances there will be disruption as duo lipo will be performing in Wembley the same weekend?

 

[OliverH68]

As someone who is visiting high wycombe from Birmingham moor street, for a theatre show in June, what are the chances there will be disruption as duo lipo will be performing in Wembley the same weekend?

You'll be fine, concerts are generally a bit more relaxed in terms of arrangements with just extra Wembley calls in existing schedules typically.

 

[MarkyT]

As someone who is visiting high wycombe from Birmingham moor street, for a theatre show in June, what are the chances there will be disruption as duo lipo will be performing in Wembley the same weekend?

People moan about bustitution, but this is another level. the industry clearly has precedent now for any service to be summarily abandoned all day without substitution anywhere in the country at short notice due to an event in another part of the country concerned with a sport or entertainment I have no interest or involvement with, and to cap it all they don't even have to announce it on the national rail website. If the practice becomes more widespread, rail effectively becomes unusable at weekends.