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Chiltern electrification alternatives being studied...

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Bletchleyite

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I would genuinely take that with a significant pinch of salt now.

There's been a few versions of it knocking around, but the idea that there'd be no fast Euston-MK-Cov-Brum service (not via Northampton) seems far fetched, even if it's Class 350 or 730 operated. By the time HS2 opens, MK will be nearly twice its present size and will justify it alone.
 
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tomuk

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There's been a few versions of it knocking around, but the idea that there'd be no fast Euston-MK-Cov-Brum service (not via Northampton) seems far fetched, even if it's Class 350 or 730 operated. By the time HS2 opens, MK will be nearly twice its present size and will justify it alone.
There was one wacky plan with a Trent Valley to\from London service via Nuneaton and Coventry.
 

stevieinselby

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Problem with FLIRTs is that they waste platform length, upside is (particularly on a DOO railway) level boarding. Will be interesting to see.
Do they waste as much platform space as a loco and DVT?
As far as I can see, the only Chiltern stations that can't accommodate anything more than a 3-car FLIRT without SDO is Sudbury & Harrow Road and the bay at Princes Risborough. A few stations would be limited to a 4-car FLIRT – Sudbury Hill, Northolt Park, South Ruislip*, Great Missenden*, Wendover*, Stoke Mandeville*, Monks Risborough, Little Kimble
(* in one direction only).
All other Chiltern stations can accommodate a 3+3 FLIRT at least, equivalent to about 4.5 carriages of traditional stock – and given how many 2 or 3 carriage trains Chiltern run normally, I don't think that they are close to needing to worry about whether their trains are too long for their stations!

Is battery technology well-enough developed to allow a battery-only unit to be specified? As the 165s are used predominantly on stopping / suburban services, would this be an option or would distance (eg Aylesbury - Marylebone or Marylebone - High Wycombe) be beyond the limits of battery capacity?
It isn't just about battery capacity, it's also about charging time. If part of the route is electrified then trains can recharge their batteries while running on the electrified section, meaning less downtime. But if little or none of the route is electrified then you have to factor in enough time to plug in and recharge at the terminus, which could well mean extended layovers and a much less efficient utilisation of resources – ie, you would need 3 trains to run the same frequency of service that you can currently do with 2.
 

Bletchleyite

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Do they waste as much platform space as a loco and DVT?

Probably not quite as much, but certainly as much as a loco and DTSO like on the Mk5s. The power pack is about a third of a vehicle, and the longer space behind each cab with electrical equipment that can't fit under the floor is probably about the same for each cab, giving about a full vehicle of platform space used for non-seating purposes. Some low-floor European stock puts this kit on the roof (I'm sure there are low floor DMUs somewhere with the *engine* on the roof, though I forget where) but the UK loading gauge isn't really big enough.

You could of course mitigate a bit with a solution like Merseyrail used by only having a single door on the end vehicle which is sufficiently far in not to be off the platform. However it is worth noting that that does cause passenger flow issues and may not be great for commuter operations as these new units are intended for.
 
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stevieinselby

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Not yet you don't. When it's diesel train vs. electric cars and buses, things might be different...
Battery-electric cars and buses have their own problems – particularly in terms of mining lithium for the batteries. I think as electric vehicles become more common and the demand for lithium continues to grow, we'll start to see more of a pushback against it, and the idea of replacing diesel trains with battery-electric buses will not get a lot of public support.
 

12LDA28C

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Do they waste as much platform space as a loco and DVT?
As far as I can see, the only Chiltern stations that can't accommodate anything more than a 3-car FLIRT without SDO is Sudbury & Harrow Road and the bay at Princes Risborough. A few stations would be limited to a 4-car FLIRT – Sudbury Hill, Northolt Park, South Ruislip*, Great Missenden*, Wendover*, Stoke Mandeville*, Monks Risborough, Little Kimble

Not sure where you're getting your information from, but both the Sudburys are 3-car only, the bay at Princes Risborough can only take a 2-car. Northolt Park can take 5 in both directions, South Ruislip can take 5 on the Down, 6 on the Up and Great Missenden, Wendover and Stoke Mandeville can take a 6-car in both directions.
 

stevieinselby

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Not sure where you're getting your information from, but both the Sudburys are 3-car only, the bay at Princes Risborough can only take a 2-car. Northolt Park can take 5 in both directions, South Ruislip can take 5 on the Down, 6 on the Up and Great Missenden, Wendover and Stoke Mandeville can take a 6-car in both directions.
I'm looking at the sectional appendix.
FLIRT carriages are shorter than others, a 3-car FLIRT is 65m and a 4-car FLIRT is 80m.
Northolt Park is 123m and so a fraction too short for a 3+3 combo, hence limited to a 4, likewise South Ruislip down.
Great Missenden, Wendover and Stoke Mandeville are shown as having up platforms between 100 and 110m so (if that is correct) would be limited to 4 carriages, but the down platforms are longer.
 

cle

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There's been a few versions of it knocking around, but the idea that there'd be no fast Euston-MK-Cov-Brum service (not via Northampton) seems far fetched, even if it's Class 350 or 730 operated. By the time HS2 opens, MK will be nearly twice its present size and will justify it alone.
It looks like it will, but with Watford calls. I think this is ok - Watford has higher rail usage and certainly higher London commuting. But I’d expect it to change, Watford to Rugby nonstop seems unnecessary.

I also think the timetable seems ridiculously favourable to Leighton Buzzard, but probably due to crossing moves, and regulating - things may as well call.

MKC is a larger regional railhead, especially as Watford’s inter city services were removed. I look forward to both having more back.

Economy, not raw population - is the main indicator of rail usage. As well as supply. Look at Bradford Vs Cambridge for the former, Huddersfield v Bradford for the latter.

MK’s job growth, sector mix, creation and inward investment will determine future success and rail demand. Northampton is big but barely on the map. Being an important regional retail and commercial centre alone won’t do that - that’s Plymouth or Norwich. But I think MK has a broader mix and likely a much more significant role.
 

12LDA28C

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Great Missenden, Wendover and Stoke Mandeville are shown as having up platforms between 100 and 110m so (if that is correct) would be limited to 4 carriages, but the down platforms are longer.

This is incorrect. Those three stations all take a 6-car Class 165/168 in both directions so could accommodate a 3+3-car FLIRT.

*edit - I've just checked the Sectional Appendix and the platform lengths you quote are as listed. However, the SA is wrong!
 
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Bletchleyite

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It looks like it will, but with Watford calls. I think this is ok - Watford has higher rail usage and certainly higher London commuting. But I’d expect it to change, Watford to Rugby nonstop seems unnecessary.

Later versions of the proposal I've seen have all four calling at MKC, but half calling at Watford and half Rugby. To be honest I'd expect and favour calls at all three, other than perhaps the North Wales service which might benefit, as HS2 isn't applicable, from running non stop to Crewe.

North Wales is an interesting debate on its own, though not so much for this thread, as to what extent the through service needs to remain will depend on if people prefer changing to HS2 at Crewe.

MK’s job growth, sector mix, creation and inward investment will determine future success and rail demand. Northampton is big but barely on the map. Being an important regional retail and commercial centre alone won’t do that - that’s Plymouth or Norwich. But I think MK has a broader mix and likely a much more significant role.

MK will, by the time HS2 opens in full, likely be well over half a million and be one of the UK's major economic powerhouses. It'll easily justify 2tph reasonably fast to Brum on its own.
 

tomuk

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I'm looking at the sectional appendix.
FLIRT carriages are shorter than others, a 3-car FLIRT is 65m and a 4-car FLIRT is 80m.
Northolt Park is 123m and so a fraction too short for a 3+3 combo, hence limited to a 4, likewise South Ruislip down.
Great Missenden, Wendover and Stoke Mandeville are shown as having up platforms between 100 and 110m so (if that is correct) would be limited to 4 carriages, but the down platforms are longer.
It isn't just the overall length though but also the on useable space the seating capacity of a 4 car Flirt is getting on for 100 seats less than a 4 car 20m 150.
 

12LDA28C

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It isn't just the overall length though but also the on useable space the seating capacity of a 4 car Flirt is getting on for 100 seats less than a 4 car 20m 150.

Chiltern don't operate 150s.... a comparison with seating capacity on a 165 or 168 might be more appropriate
 

stevieinselby

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It isn't just the overall length though but also the on useable space the seating capacity of a 4 car Flirt is getting on for 100 seats less than a 4 car 20m 150.
Sure, a 4-car FLIRT is more akin to a 3-car set of anything else ... but I think we're digressing from the original point, which was that although with FLIRTs you need slightly longer platforms to get the same passenger capacity, almost all Chiltern stations are more than long enough to accommodate FLIRT formations that will give at least the same capacity as is offered now, because in many cases Chiltern are running tiny trains that could fit in the platform 2 or 3 times over.
 

eldomtom2

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Battery-electric cars and buses have their own problems – particularly in terms of mining lithium for the batteries. I think as electric vehicles become more common and the demand for lithium continues to grow, we'll start to see more of a pushback against it, and the idea of replacing diesel trains with battery-electric buses will not get a lot of public support.
When the alternative is burning oil, people won't mind about mining lithium.
 

tomuk

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Chiltern don't operate 150s.... a comparison with seating capacity on a 165 or 168 might be more appropriate
There about 70 seats more in a 168 and 150 in a 165. Flirts are not people movers.
 

Bletchleyite

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There about 70 seats more in a 168 and 150 in a 165. Flirts are not people movers.

It's unlikely any new units would specify 3+2 seating; most operators have realised that a wider aisle is better for capacity and accessibility.

What length 168 are you comparing? It's the length of the passenger accommodation you'd need to compare - think of a FLIRT as LHCS, the loco is just split between the power pod and the bit behind the cab.
 

tomuk

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It's unlikely any new units would specify 3+2 seating; most operators have realised that a wider aisle is better for capacity and accessibility.

What length 168 are you comparing? It's the length of the passenger accommodation you'd need to compare - think of a FLIRT as LHCS, the loco is just split between the power pod and the bit behind the cab.
How many new Aventras have 3+2 it doesn't appear operators have realised as you suggest. I much prefer 2+2 it is amazing the difference it makes on a TfW 150/2 compared to the traditional layout

As regards Flirts they are just space inefficient just like a loco and coaches are but probably worse because you can't stop the loco off the front of the platform. The commuter version for the Valleys with an extra door in the coach is even worse.
 

Bletchleyite

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As regards Flirts they are just space inefficient just like a loco and coaches are but probably worse because you can't stop the loco off the front of the platform. The commuter version for the Valleys with an extra door in the coach is even worse.

But what they do offer is level boarding, which on a DOO railway is an absolute killer app.
 

12LDA28C

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Sure, a 4-car FLIRT is more akin to a 3-car set of anything else ... but I think we're digressing from the original point, which was that although with FLIRTs you need slightly longer platforms to get the same passenger capacity, almost all Chiltern stations are more than long enough to accommodate FLIRT formations that will give at least the same capacity as is offered now, because in many cases Chiltern are running tiny trains that could fit in the platform 2 or 3 times over.

Which is pretty much due to lack of fleet availability, not because they choose to. If they had the units they would run longer trains.
 

cle

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Later versions of the proposal I've seen have all four calling at MKC, but half calling at Watford and half Rugby. To be honest I'd expect and favour calls at all three, other than perhaps the North Wales service which might benefit, as HS2 isn't applicable, from running non stop to Crewe.

North Wales is an interesting debate on its own, though not so much for this thread, as to what extent the through service needs to remain will depend on if people prefer changing to HS2 at Crewe.



MK will, by the time HS2 opens in full, likely be well over half a million and be one of the UK's major economic powerhouses. It'll easily justify 2tph reasonably fast to Brum on its own.
Or a very very large dormitory or regional town. Northampton is that. Would you say Nottingham was an economic powerhouse?

Or a Bradford, big in population but not important. It can go many ways, as I said, population by itself doesn't guarantee anything.
 

Bletchleyite

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Killer app or party trick?

Killer app. It means the number of people requiring booked assistance is minimal, so you can just have a few staff driving round to do it at stations, of which Chiltern have a fair few, without platform staff.

Which DOO railway is using FLIRTSanyway?

None as of yet, but it was planned for Merseyrail until the guards kicked off about it.

Or a very very large dormitory or regional town. Northampton is that. Would you say Nottingham was an economic powerhouse?

The population of Northampton is about 250K, about the same as MK now. MK by then will be 500+K.

Or a Bradford, big in population but not important. It can go many ways, as I said, population by itself doesn't guarantee anything.

Very very unlikely. And EWR will only make it more important.
 

zwk500

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Or a very very large dormitory or regional town. Northampton is that. Would you say Nottingham was an economic powerhouse?

Or a Bradford, big in population but not important. It can go many ways, as I said, population by itself doesn't guarantee anything.
Population isn't the only thing, but MK already has substantial offices, tech jobs, the OU, and the council offices alongside being the region's biggest retail destination. It also has the good luck to be a key interchange on the mainline so lots of stops in long-distance trains for good connectivity. MK is already a more significant economic centre than Northampton, and growing in size is only going to increase that.
 

cle

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Agreed. Those things are already there. I’m curious other than housing and sprawl what the economic prospects are beyond logistics hubs. As I’m not sure it’ll be proportionate to popn growth. I can’t think of many places with the same growth to draw from, we’ll have to see. I like the place and hope it thrives. Hopefully more real tech jobs and professional services. And some actual lifestyle / attractive living, it’s pretty generic. The neighborhoods don’t compare to a Chorlton, Clifton or an Edgbaston, or the West Ends of Scotland, for cultural city living and attracting non-London urban dwellers.

EWR will be handy, but it’s not that different to the B’ham-Leics-P’boro line really, which is windy and underused - but connects important nodes. And of course it hits Bletchley.
 

Bletchleyite

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Agreed. Those things are already there. I’m curious other than housing and sprawl what the economic prospects are beyond logistics hubs. As I’m not sure it’ll be proportionate to popn growth. I can’t think of many places with the same growth to draw from, we’ll have to see. I like the place and hope it thrives. Hopefully more real tech jobs and professional services.

You don't know MK very well, evidently. There's loads of that! Indeed the whole reason I live there at all is that it's where I started my IT career.

As for EWR the Oxford end is planned to run to MKC.

And some actual lifestyle / attractive living, it’s pretty generic. The neighborhoods don’t compare to a Chorlton, Clifton or an Edgbaston, or the West Ends of Scotland, for cultural city living and attracting non-London urban dwellers.

It offers what most people want - pleasant, spacious, green, safe suburban living. Ideal for bringing up a family.

It's not boho like Chorlton (the most overhyped, overpriced place I know - I get Didsbury but I don't get Chorlton). But most people older than mid 20s don't want that. I don't see any attraction at all in most of suburban Manchester, it's just swathes of crime ridden, ugly grim. If I worked in Manchester I'd want to live somewhere on the edge of the Peak like Marple or in north Cheshire, or in the city centre.
 
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zwk500

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Hopefully more real tech jobs and professional services.
MK is home to several F1 firms and Cranfield Uni is just down the road, specialising in Aerospace design and has a buzzing car safety section. It's also the home of Marshall amplifiers, who are a global supplier of audio equipment for the entertainment industry. I lived in MK for 5 years. Tech is a massive part of it's economy.
And some actual lifestyle / attractive living, it’s pretty generic. The neighborhoods don’t compare to a Chorlton, Clifton or an Edgbaston, or the West Ends of Scotland, for cultural city living and attracting non-London urban dwellers.
It's boring is what you mean. And yes, by and large it is. There's a nice enough theatre and some bars and restaurants but it's not a traditional city centre. But for people raising a young family that's fine. It's not dead, there's still things to do in the evenings and weekends. I wouldn't choose to live there if I could be 22 again, but it's not a terrible place for people at other stages of their life.
 

Bletchleyite

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It's boring is what you mean. And yes, by and large it is. There's a nice enough theatre and some bars and restaurants but it's not a traditional city centre. But for people raising a young family that's fine. It's not dead, there's still things to do in the evenings and weekends. I wouldn't choose to live there if I could be 22 again, but it's not a terrible place for people at other stages of their life.

I didn't like it that much in my 20s either, but London is very nearby. I struggle however to think of anywhere better (in an urban context) to bring up a young family. Most notably the Redways mean kids can walk and cycle around in near total safety.
 

supervc-10

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It's boring is what you mean. And yes, by and large it is. There's a nice enough theatre and some bars and restaurants but it's not a traditional city centre. But for people raising a young family that's fine. It's not dead, there's still things to do in the evenings and weekends. I wouldn't choose to live there if I could be 22 again, but it's not a terrible place for people at other stages of their life.
Personally I'd take Chorlton over that, as someone how is now long past being 22! But we have absolutely no plans to start a family, and so we are perhaps the outliers.

However I do agree that MK has quite a draw, in terms of the economic power of the place. It wouldn't be growing to 500k people if there wasn't something driving that.

But this is going off topic.

Re Chiltern and FLIRTS - could a diesel/battery FLIRT have more than 4 passenger cars? A 6-car unit, if you could put enough power in the power pack, could work well I think, although not all the bays and it would need SDO.
 

tomuk

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Personally I'd take Chorlton over that, as someone how is now long past being 22! But we have absolutely no plans to start a family, and so we are perhaps the outliers.

However I do agree that MK has quite a draw, in terms of the economic power of the place. It wouldn't be growing to 500k people if there wasn't something driving that.

But this is going off topic.

Re Chiltern and FLIRTS - could a diesel/battery FLIRT have more than 4 passenger cars? A 6-car unit, if you could put enough power in the power pack, could work well I think, although not all the bays and it would need SDO.
Well a current four car FLIRT has four 16L V8 Deutz diesels putting out 2750hp compared to four 13L I6 MTU diesels putting out 1688hp on an equivalent 168 so pulling a couple of extra trailers shouldn't be a problem apart from the tiny fuel tanks.
 

12LDA28C

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Re Chiltern and FLIRTS - could a diesel/battery FLIRT have more than 4 passenger cars? A 6-car unit, if you could put enough power in the power pack, could work well I think, although not all the bays and it would need SDO.

You wouldn't want a single unit having 6 cars, there's zero operational flexibility there. Better having a mix of 3- and 4-car units so that you can match capacity to demand and detach / attach as necessary.
 
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