Chiltern Overcrowding/Poor services

[Vanmanyo]

I just wanted to make this as I was on a very busy 165 from London to Birmingham, (a rarity but still a 165!!??), and was just wondering how often Chiltern reach capacity, I have been on many Chiltern services where there is standing room only, mostly on London to Birmingham but also on the Aylesbury routes (I don't know if Oxford overcrowds as well). Surely somebody has to realise that some funding for more carriages has to happen (especially as the Chiltern 172s are with WMR and the 165s are not a viable solution for long distance), whether it be just a loan move for the 175s or something, or new stock soon (as we haven't had any new DMUs on the Chilterns since the introduction of the 168s in the early 2000s). I think something needs to happen, rather than spending money on these HybridFLEX trains that break down too often.

Anyway, that's my take, would love to hear from anyone else that has been on a poor Chiltern service

 

[sammyg901]

I think Chiltern will eventually have to rewrite their entire timetable, especially as I've read here and there that they'll lose the 68s. I use Chiltern for a mix of commuting (from Aylesbury Vale Parkway) and leisure (Usually from Bicester) and it often seems completely mismatched to actual demand. The Aylesbury Vale Parkway "fast" services are half empty, especially going home and that is a Weds/Thurs so Mon/Fri they must be very quiet. Yet off peak services can be very busy but often very slow from Bicester Village into London in 75mph paths calling at places like Denham .

But without season ticket revenue to pay for it all the sums are very difficult I imagine

 

[Horizon22]

There's a lot of overcrowding across the board on Sunday services at the moment (and for the past few months), even when they are running in booked formations. Will probably only get worse as Summer continues as I haven't seen much of a recalibration in Sunday timetabling & diagrams, although it is early days (since the May timetable change).

 

[JonathanH]

The issue of not burning any more diesel than is necessary cannot be ignored. Having any spare capacity is not a good use of fuel and emissons. With any luck, HS2 taking London to Birmingham custom will create more capacity for passengers on the rest of the line without new stock on the Chiltern line. although appreciate that is a way off.

or new stock soon (as we haven't had any new DMUs on the Chilterns since the introduction of the 168s in the early 2000s)

The 168 fleet grew on a number of occasions since the early 2000s.

 

[172007]

Is Chilton still running a reduced timetable?

Question is, how many 165's / 168's are:

A) in traffic
B) Stopped awaiting maintenance
C) Stopped hours / mileage balancing.

Yet the rumours are that the LHCS are leaving after the games.

They are struggling to put the pre covid train lengths of often upto 8 carriages on Birmingham's At the moment.

 

[Vanmanyo]

I think Chiltern will eventually have to rewrite their entire timetable, especially as I've read here and there that they'll lose the 68s. I use Chiltern for a mix of commuting (from Aylesbury Vale Parkway) and leisure (Usually from Bicester) and it often seems completely mismatched to actual demand. The Aylesbury Vale Parkway "fast" services are half empty, especially going home and that is a Weds/Thurs so Mon/Fri they must be very quiet. Yet off peak services can be very busy but often very slow from Bicester Village into London in 75mph paths calling at places like Denham .

But without season ticket revenue to pay for it all the sums are very difficult I imagine

I've spoken to Chiltern staff and apparently the 68s are remaining. I've been on services from Aylesbury in the morning that are 6 car and empty and then 2 car 165s going back that are full, I agree that they don't know when their most demand is

The issue of not burning any more diesel than is necessary cannot be ignored. Having any spare capacity is not a good use of fuel and emissons. With any luck, HS2 taking London to Birmingham custom will create more capacity for passengers on the rest of the line without new stock on the Chiltern line. although appreciate that is a way off.


The 168 fleet grew on a number of occasions since the early 2000s.

Yes, the 168/3 are the newest but these were only i think like 10 units and weren't brand new

Is Chilton still running a reduced timetable?

Question is, how many 165's / 168's are:

A) in traffic
B) Stopped awaiting maintenance
C) Stopped hours / mileage balancing.

Yet the rumours are that the LHCS are leaving after the games.

They are struggling to put the pre covid train lengths of often upto 8 carriages on Birmingham's At the moment.

To quote what I said to Sammy I believe the 68s are staying. Chiltern have a few 165s out and a few 168s out (most notably the HybridFLEX) but I think around only 10 units are out, what's worrying is that some of these units have been out for several months sitting at Aylesbury sidings. Chiltern have never run 8 car services I believe due to platform lenghts at places like Warwick, Solihull and Moor Street only capable of holding a 68, just, and the 68 sets are shorter than 168s I believe.

 

[The Planner]

Snow Hill lines are likely to have a re-write for May 23, though its unlikely to alter the long distance stuff.

 

[Vanmanyo]

Snow Hill lines are likely to have a re-write for May 23, though its unlikely to alter the long distance stuff.

Ye, most likely just WMR changing service pattern, Chiltern will probably only continue to serve Kidderminster in the peak, no point for services to Kidderminser hourly to London, no demand.

 

[sammyg901]

Good news re: the 68s, I had been wondering how they would manage without those, there was quite a lot of overcrowding in the morning on the Birmingham services into London before they returned to more services in the December timetable.

 

[Mojo]

The Chiltern timetable and stopping pattern is ridiculously complicated, with often uneven gaps and very poor connections between local stations and longer distance services. For most of the day if I’m going to Birmingham it requires two changes despite already living on the same line!

 

[driverd]

The issue of not burning any more diesel than is necessary cannot be ignored. Having any spare capacity is not a good use of fuel and emissons. With any luck, HS2 taking London to Birmingham custom will create more capacity for passengers on the rest of the line without new stock on the Chiltern line. although appreciate that is a way off.

It's a little bit of a false arguement though. If you save fuel by not strengthening services, you simply drive prospective customers to other modes, most likely, the motor car. Whilst the railway is slightly less efficient by strengthening, the overall, holistic, picture is more emissions by not.

Right now, every vehicle available should be out to strengthen at the weekend to help the railway continue it's rebound and grow custom.

 

[philosopher]

Is Chilton still running a reduced timetable?

On weekdays, their timetable is mostly back to normal on the London to Birmingham route, though some trains have more stops and a few trains during the middle of the day are still missing. I have never seen their trains overcrowded during the week, pre or post Covid, though I never used them at peak times.

On weekends, on the London to Birmingham route, I would say they are only running two thirds of their pre Covid timetable, and most of the trains have quite a few more stops, meaning most trains take 20 to 25 minutes longer. Northbound in most hours they only have a service at xx00. A few of the hours do have an additional service at xx37.

Chiltern trains in my experience were overcrowded on weekends even before Covid. I have generally not used Chiltern much during the weekends since Covid due mainly to their poor weekend timetable. Avanti may only running two thirds of the trains on this route, but at least their journey times are almost the same as in pre Covid times.

 

[peteb]

Ye, most likely just WMR changing service pattern, Chiltern will probably only continue to serve Kidderminster in the peak, no point for services to Kidderminser hourly to London, no demand.

Speak for yourself.....the single most limiting factor in getting decent economic development in Wyre Forest (after lack of direct motorway access) is a lack of decent through trains to the SE via either Birmingham (Chiltern) or Worcester (FGW). With a large increase in housing development envisaged courtesy of the recently published Local Plan there will be more demand for more trains and trains that go further than Worcester or Dorridge during the day.....it's not much fun driving to Warwick Parkway or Worcestershire Parkway between 7am and 9am, and if one tries later the car parks fill up.......

 

[RJ]

The Chiltern timetable and stopping pattern is ridiculously complicated, with often uneven gaps and very poor connections between local stations and longer distance services. For most of the day if I’m going to Birmingham it requires two changes despite already living on the same line!

I guess that’s an effect of a two track mainline with limited passing points. It’s the only line I’ve been on where I’ve been on a train that has powered through a booked stop. After examining the timetable and the complex stopping patterns I understood why a call might occasionally be missed. Elsewhere local stoppers get less love - the York stopper over on the East Coast still runs once every two hours?

As for two changes, would it be quicker to change in London . It’s like that for a lot of journeys on the MML!

 

[peteb]

I guess the problem with running an all stations service to say Banbury is that the following fast trains will catch it up. And then if Banbury were a major interchange northbound folks joining there would struggle to get a seat as a good many journeys seem to be Marylebone to Birmingham. Maybe the stoppers could play leapfrog with the fasts if they could install a couple of passing loops? The loss of the through lines at Beaconsfield and Bicester now seems short sighted.

 

[Vanmanyo]

I guess the problem with running an all stations service to say Banbury is that the following fast trains will catch it up. And then if Banbury were a major interchange northbound folks joining there would struggle to get a seat as a good many journeys seem to be Marylebone to Birmingham. Maybe the stoppers could play leapfrog with the fasts if they could install a couple of passing loops? The loss of the through lines at Beaconsfield and Bicester now seems short sighted.

Ye, the fact that there is only double track from Leam to London doesn't help

 

[The Planner]

Ye, the fact that there is only double track from Leam to London doesn't help

You can overtake at Banbury, Princes Risborough and the Ruislips.

 

[Mikey C]

Their fleet mix isn't ideal either, I imagine they'd much rather have more 168s and fewer 165s as 75mph 165s on the mainline must make timetabling incredibly messy.

 

[paul1609]

I just wanted to make this as I was on a very busy 165 from London to Birmingham, (a rarity but still a 165!!??), and was just wondering how often Chiltern reach capacity, I have been on many Chiltern services where there is standing room only, mostly on London to Birmingham but also on the Aylesbury routes (I don't know if Oxford overcrowds as well). Surely somebody has to realise that some funding for more carriages has to happen (especially as the Chiltern 172s are with WMR and the 165s are not a viable solution for long distance), whether it be just a loan move for the 175s or something, or new stock soon (as we haven't had any new DMUs on the Chilterns since the introduction of the 168s in the early 2000s). I think something needs to happen, rather than spending money on these HybridFLEX trains that break down too often.

Anyway, that's my take, would love to hear from anyone else that has been on a poor Chiltern service

165s have only relatively recently been introduced on Cardiff Central to Portsmouth services (135 miles) compared to Chilterns 112 miles. That route also suffers capacity issues. Since Chiltern is unlikely to have much Birmingham London traffic post HS2 its not a priority for investment imho.

 

[starlightEXPRESS]

Buckinghamshire (High Wycombe, Beaconsfield and Gerrards Cross) and Oxfordshire (Oxford and Bicester) are more important markets for Chiltern than the West Midlands.

 

[Phil56]

We went via Chiltern to Wembley for a football play off final last year. The outbound train was fine, full length (8?), got a bit crowded towards London, but fine overall). The return trip was a shambles - a platform full of supporters after leaving the ground, and a 2 coach train turned up, quickly filled and left with the platform still full. The opposite platform was also full, a 3 coach train arrived in that direction taking some of the supporters towards London. On our side, another train came, another 2 coacher for a different destination, quickly filled up and left people standing! Our next train was about half an hour off, and it was a 3 coacher, so again, filled up quickly and left people on the platform. Where were the longer formations? Was it not obvious that full length trains are needed for the services straight after the end of a play off final?? It's hardly rocket science that there'd be a lot of people there! All the trains we saw on the way down were full length (8?), but none after the match finished in either direction, to any destinations!

 

[david1212]

.... Since Chiltern is unlikely to have much Birmingham London traffic post HS2 its not a priority for investment imho.

The issue of not burning any more diesel than is necessary cannot be ignored. Having any spare capacity is not a good use of fuel and emissons. With any luck, HS2 taking London to Birmingham custom will create more capacity for passengers on the rest of the line without new stock on the Chiltern line. although appreciate that is a way off ...

Only if HS2 is not significantly more expensive. Now if Chiltern was not cheaper than Advanti how many would use Chiltern ?
Move not far along the Chiltern line and will it actually be quicker to travel to Birmingham Interchange then HS2 rather than use Chiltern?

Right now as I see Chiltern need to monitor the changes in demand from 2019 then ( easier ) adjust train lengths to best match these and ( harder / longer term ) adjust the timetable.

I hope the comments above that the sets of class 68 and stock do remain after August even if used less are right as without plus the existing fleet getting older they will struggle.

As to the use of fuel again trying to balance demand with train capacity and operational needs e.g. stock placement at end of day for the next day. Once HS2 is open will there be pressure to use Birmingham Interchange then electric HS2 instead of Warwick parkway and diesel Chiltern?

 

[The exile]

Their fleet mix isn't ideal either, I imagine they'd much rather have more 168s and fewer 165s as 75mph 165s on the mainline must make timetabling incredibly messy.

Well, if they want to get rid of some 165s, there’s various schemes in GWR territory that could soak them up…

 

[paul1609]

Only if HS2 is not significantly more expensive. Now if Chiltern was not cheaper than Advanti how many would use Chiltern ?
Move not far along the Chiltern line and will it actually be quicker to travel to Birmingham Interchange then HS2 rather than use Chiltern?

Right now as I see Chiltern need to monitor the changes in demand from 2019 then ( easier ) adjust train lengths to best match these and ( harder / longer term ) adjust the timetable.

I hope the comments above that the sets of class 68 and stock do remain after August even if used less are right as without plus the existing fleet getting older they will struggle.

As to the use of fuel again trying to balance demand with train capacity and operational needs e.g. stock placement at end of day for the next day. Once HS2 is open will there be pressure to use Birmingham Interchange then electric HS2 instead of Warwick parkway and diesel Chiltern?

Whilst not a direct comparison when HS1 opened the fares from East Kent were at a premium of 30% (Margate via Ashford is just over 90 Miles). To pay for the "improvements" non HS1 fares were also increased by 5% + rpi for several years. Everybody including this forum screamed that the premium would make HS1 a white Elephant. In reality pre pandemic HS1 had taken over 90% of the East Kent to London Market and was in the Peak full and standing between Ashford and Stratford. The comparable trains on the SEML are now indeed ghost trains on departure from Ashford. Despite a lot of house building, traffic at stations like Headcorn (defacto) a South Maidstone Parkway are still 35% below their pre HS1 levels. Probably just as well because traffic from Tonbridge and Sevenoaks has grown so much the trains are still full as they enter Greater London.
Fuel type is to an extent a red herring in that any new railway or electrification will actually be using marginal electricity generated by fossil fuels(gas) as all the low carbon generation is already spoken for except in the middle of the night.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well, if they want to get rid of some 165s, there’s various schemes in GWR territory that could soak them up…

The main problem with Turbostars is that not enough were built, so I don't know where they'd magic up more 168s from.

 

[diffident]

We went via Chiltern to Wembley for a football play off final last year. The outbound train was fine, full length (8?), got a bit crowded towards London, but fine overall). The return trip was a shambles - a platform full of supporters after leaving the ground, and a 2 coach train turned up, quickly filled and left with the platform still full. The opposite platform was also full, a 3 coach train arrived in that direction taking some of the supporters towards London. On our side, another train came, another 2 coacher for a different destination, quickly filled up and left people standing! Our next train was about half an hour off, and it was a 3 coacher, so again, filled up quickly and left people on the platform. Where were the longer formations? Was it not obvious that full length trains are needed for the services straight after the end of a play off final?? It's hardly rocket science that there'd be a lot of people there! All the trains we saw on the way down were full length (8?), but none after the match finished in either direction, to any destinations!

This is exactly what happened on Sunday. Wrexham fans heading via Birmingham home. I didn't catch the train there, I stayed in London until yesterday, but on the bridge over the station it was chaos, and looking down onto the platform it was rammed.

Pre-covid, Chiltern did put on extras and made specific calls at Wembley even if not normally booked to stop.

It would appear that Wembley no longer seems to be in their planning!

 

[Route115?]

The inner services are terrible as are connections - try getting from West Ruislip to Birmingham, you are better off going via Euston (but I get free travel so don't have to worry about the cost). As has been mentioned, the problem is running a combined inner & outer suburban service on a two track railway. They have been competing aggressively on price to Birmingham and more recently Oxford with success (Avanti is still only operating two West Midlands trains per hour) but the line isn't really suited to it. They were one of the TOCs hit hardest by covid (not many tourists to Bicester Village and a very high proportion of commuters who could work from home) so have had to make economies. Now leisure traffic is coming back. I agree that a rewrite might and an easy to remember clock face timetable would be great but can it be done? Will things change under GBR?

 

[philosopher]

The inner services are terrible as are connections - try getting from West Ruislip to Birmingham, you are better off going via Euston (but I get free travel so don't have to worry about the cost). As has been mentioned, the problem is running a combined inner & outer suburban service on a two track railway. They have been competing aggressively on price to Birmingham and more recently Oxford with success (Avanti is still only operating two West Midlands trains per hour) but the line isn't really suited to it. They were one of the TOCs hit hardest by covid (not many tourists to Bicester Village and a very high proportion of commuters who could work from home) so have had to make economies. Now leisure traffic is coming back. I agree that a rewrite might and an easy to remember clock face timetable would be great but can it be done? Will things change under GBR?

If the London to Birmingham and Oxford trains were semi fast services stopping at places like Princes Risborough and Gerrards Cross, perhaps taking 2:15 to 2:30 instead of the current 1:45 to 2:00 to Birmingham then I assume timetabling would be a lot easier.

However such a timetable change would not go well in places like Solihull, Leamington Spa and Banbury. Bicester Village shopping centre also would not be happy if many of their visitors had a longer journey.

 

[The Planner]

If the London to Birmingham and Oxford trains were semi fast services stopping at places like Princes Risborough and Gerrards Cross, perhaps taking 2:15 to 2:30 instead of the current 1:45 to 2:00 to Birmingham then I assume timetabling would be a lot easier.

However such a timetable change would not go well in places like Solihull, Leamington Spa and Banbury. Bicester Village shopping centre also would not be happy if many of their visitors had a longer journey.

Not a lot Bicester Village could do about, especially when they chip in for the running of any Boxing day trains.

 

[Vanmanyo]

This is exactly what happened on Sunday. Wrexham fans heading via Birmingham home. I didn't catch the train there, I stayed in London until yesterday, but on the bridge over the station it was chaos, and looking down onto the platform it was rammed.

Pre-covid, Chiltern did put on extras and made specific calls at Wembley even if not normally booked to stop.

It would appear that Wembley no longer seems to be in their planning!

They still add extra calling points but not extra carriages or services unlike before covid.