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Chiltern Railways Electrification Programme

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YourMum666

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Is there justification for electrification of the chiltern line from Marylebone to Birmingham Snow Hill and Aylesbury, and if there is, what would be the best way to go about it , the trains on the line and how would the project be delivered in the most successful and efficient way possible, and would this have been a more cost efficient way of increasing capacity on the London - Birmingham corridor instead of HS2
 
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The Planner

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Is there justification for electrification of the chiltern line from Marylebone to Birmingham Snow Hill and Aylesbury, and if there is, what would be the best way to go about it , the trains on the line and how would the project be delivered in the most successful and efficient way possible, and would this have been a more cost efficient way of increasing capacity on the London - Birmingham corridor instead of HS2
You would do Leamington through Snow Hill first and onwards to Kidderminster. As for capacity instead of HS2, no, as the signalling limits that alongside stopping patterns. You would be building plenty of new bits to eat into what HS2 could deliver.
 

BrianW

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IIRC, when what has become HS2 was in gestation, the then Transport Secretary was considering revival of the former GW route London- Birmingham via High Wycombe, which had been singled. There was capacity. As HS2 through the Chilterns developed, the fact that it would free capacity and improve services at eg Banbury, Bicester and Beaconsfield was not pushed. MPs sought to support local anger until 'the greasy pole' of the government bench beckoned!

Residents around Marylebone Station rightly object to diesel fumes and noise pollution. I understand there are 'technical issues' in mixing Overhead and 3rd/4th rail.

Chiltern commuters are amongst the most well-off and Workers from Home, so predicting future travel needs is quite fraught. Pehaps the development of community-turbined electric car-share bikeable eco-villages around stations on East-West Rail will encourage the same on the Chiltern Line. A 21st Century Metroland.

p236 of the 2020 TDNS study indicated:
The Aylesbury branch from London Marylebone operates a regional commuter service into London. This could
be operated using battery rolling stock utilising electrification as far as Princes Risborough, but it is likely that
the intensity of service would favour electrification to London. This would provide an added benefit as rolling
stock is from the same pool as services to Banbury, which is electrified as part of WM F.



That's pre Covid, pre-Vivarail demise and pre latst 'review' of HS2.
 
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Meerkat

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Would there be any issues with having 25kv for the long stretch parallel to the trams in Birmingham?
Any chance the ORR/RSSB would allow 3rd rail from Marylebone to Neasden and Moor Park to avoid mixing 3rd rail and OHLE, and make electrifying the tunneled approaches to the terminal easier?
 

Trainbike46

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Would there be any issues with having 25kv for the long stretch parallel to the trams in Birmingham?
Any chance the ORR/RSSB would allow 3rd rail from Marylebone to Neasden and Moor Park to avoid mixing 3rd rail and OHLE, and make electrifying the tunneled approaches to the terminal easier?
There is no third rail on the route - the sections used by LU metropolitan line have 4th rail electrification, which is much easier to make compatible with OHLE than third rail.

Though I would suspect it would be cheaper to use the 4th rail already in place (plus power supply upgrades if necessary) than installing OHLE along that part of the corridor as well.
 

PTR 444

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Here’s how I think it should be done:

Phase 1: London Marylebone - Oxford/Aylesbury via High Wycombe (25KV OHLE). Introduce bi-modes for Banbury/Birmingham services and EMUs for everything else on the mainline out of Marylebone.

Phase 2: Birmingham - Leamington (25KV OHLE, as part of wider Snow Hill Lines electrification). Introduce EMUs on the WMT services

Phase 3: Amersham - Aylesbury (3rd rail). Introduce new tripcock compatible EMUs for this route.

Phase 4: Leamington - Bicester (25KV OHLE). Replace the bi-modes with fully electric units once they are life expired or can be cascaded.
 

Brubulus

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Here’s how I think it should be done:

Phase 1: London Marylebone - Oxford/Aylesbury via High Wycombe (25KV OHLE). Introduce bi-modes for Banbury/Birmingham services and EMUs for everything else on the mainline out of Marylebone.

Phase 2: Birmingham - Leamington (25KV OHLE, as part of wider Snow Hill Lines electrification). Introduce EMUs on the WMT services

Phase 3: Amersham - Aylesbury (3rd rail). Introduce new tripcock compatible EMUs for this route.

Phase 4: Leamington - Bicester (25KV OHLE). Replace the bi-modes with fully electric units once they are life expired or can be cascaded.
I'd have a single phase to allow the rollout of battery units to replace the entire fleet in the early 2030s with electrification from Bicester Junction to West Ruslip and Leamington Spa to Stourbridge to allow for battery units on both Chiltern and Snow Hill. Battery units for the Amersham line would charge off the existing LU 4th rail infrastructure between Harrow and Amersham.
 

Meerkat

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Here’s how I think it should be done:

Phase 1: London Marylebone - Oxford/Aylesbury via High Wycombe (25KV OHLE). Introduce bi-modes for Banbury/Birmingham services and EMUs for everything else on the mainline out of Marylebone.

Phase 2: Birmingham - Leamington (25KV OHLE, as part of wider Snow Hill Lines electrification). Introduce EMUs on the WMT services

Phase 3: Amersham - Aylesbury (3rd rail). Introduce new tripcock compatible EMUs for this route.

Phase 4: Leamington - Bicester (25KV OHLE). Replace the bi-modes with fully electric units once they are life expired or can be cascaded.
I would suggest the Birmingham end should come first as it has a more intensive service (doesn’t it??) and out to Leamington also adds to the mileage for other possible electric/bi-mode services.
Could Harrow-Amersham 4 rail provide enough charge for BEMUs on the Aylesbury line (maybe with strengthened power supply)?
 

WideRanger

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There is no third rail on the route - the sections used by LU metropolitan line have 4th rail electrification, which is much easier to make compatible with OHLE than third rail.

Though I would suspect it would be cheaper to use the 4th rail already in place (plus power supply upgrades if necessary) than installing OHLE along that part of the corridor as well.
There is no third rail, or fourth rail anywhere on the lines between Marylebone and Birmingham (although they run parallel to fourth-rail lines in the section Finchley Road - Neasden). The only part where Chiltern runs on lines with fourth rail electrification is the section from Harrow-on-the-Hill Northwards towards Amersham.
 

zwk500

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Is there justification for electrification of the chiltern line from Marylebone to Birmingham Snow Hill and Aylesbury,
Simply, yes. Although as you get further from London it gets flimsier until you're close enough to Birmingham when it picks up again.
and if there is, what would be the best way to go about it , the trains on the line and how would the project be delivered in the most successful and efficient way possible,
Two teams, one from Marylebone northwards, one focusing on suburban Birmingham down towards Banbury. New EMU stock with 2 Subclasses: Single-voltage Regional setup with battery option, and Dual-Voltage commuter units for Met sharing.
Phase 1A: Marylebone-High Wycombe, 1B: Wycombe-Oxford, 1C: Bicester-Banbury
Phase 2A Birmingham-Stratford-on-Avon, 2B Tyseley-Stratford/Hatton (depending on Battery), 2C Hatton - Banbury (this team would also wire out to Kidderminster/Stourbridge in a concurrent programme).
Phase 3A: Wembley Jn - limit of LUL electrification, 3B Limit of LUL-Aylesbury, 3C P. Risborough-Aylesbury
and would this have been a more cost efficient way of increasing capacity on the London - Birmingham corridor instead of HS2
No. This would be teasing a little bit of capacity out and could not have competed against a brand-new 2 track railway that also serves Manchester with relief capacity.
 

mr_jrt

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Phase 1: London Marylebone - Oxford/Aylesbury via High Wycombe (25KV OHLE). Introduce bi-modes for Banbury/Birmingham services and EMUs for everything else on the mainline out of Marylebone.

Phase 2: Birmingham - Leamington (25KV OHLE, as part of wider Snow Hill Lines electrification). Introduce EMUs on the WMT services

Phase 3: Amersham - Aylesbury (3rd rail). Introduce new tripcock compatible EMUs for this route.

Phase 4: Leamington - Bicester (25KV OHLE). Replace the bi-modes with fully electric units once they are life expired or can be cascaded.
I broadly do the same, but with changes to phase 3.

I'd cut the Met back to a rebuilt Rickmansworth with longer platforms (and split the service between there and Watford), and convert the fast lines north of Harrow to OHLE for exclusive use of NR, before extending to Aylesbury to meet the phase 1 electrification. You'd need to add a new pair of tracks from the Watford triangle to the new Ricky station, but that's not too onerous. You could cheap out and skip the Ricky rebuilt and extra tracks by using Moor Park as the interchange, but I do feel reaching Ricky would be worthwhile, especially as it'll likely need a wholesale rebuild to lengthen the platforms for longer NR trains anyway.

You can then lengthen the platforms between there and Aylesbury to run longer Chiltern services to increase capacity. You would probably want to build some more southerly Chiltern/Met interchange platforms somewhere along the line as well, perhaps at Wembley Park, or ideally if you could make the room, West Hampstead.

The alternative is to extend the Met to Aylesbury and 4th rail electrify it, but you're going to get better journey times with NR trains - NR is likely more willing to upgrade the fast lines to a proper speed rather than the suboptimal speeds TfL maintains them to for the s-stock, which is optimised for acceleration and not top speed. They peaked at 62mph with the A-stock, but they should be able to easily handle 90mph+ for NR trains given the alignments.
 
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YourMum666

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I broadly do the same, but with changes to phase 3.

I'd cut the Met back to a rebuilt Rickmansworth with longer platforms (and split the service between there and Watford), and convert the fast lines north of Harrow to OHLE for exclusive use of NR, before extending to Aylesbury to meet the phase 1 electrification. You'd need to add a new pair of tracks from the Watford triangle to the new Ricky station, but that's not too onerous. You could cheap out and skip the Ricky rebuilt and extra tracks by using Moor Park as the interchange, but I do feel reaching Ricky would be worthwhile, especially as it'll likely need a wholesale rebuild to lengthen the platforms for longer NR trains anyway.

You can then lengthen the platforms between there and Aylesbury to run longer Chiltern services to increase capacity. You would probably want to build some more southerly Chiltern/Met interchange platforms somewhere along the line as well, perhaps at Wembley Park, or ideally if you could make the room, West Hampstead.

The alternative is to extend the Met to Aylesbury and 4th rail electrify it, but you're going to get better journey times with NR trains - NR is likely more willing to upgrade the fast lines to a proper speed rather than the suboptimal speeds TfL maintains them to for the s-stock, which is optimised for acceleration and not top speed. They peaked at 62mph with the A-stock, but they should be able to easily handle 90mph+ for NR trains given the alignments.
For phase one the best trains to use would be the currently available 379s for fast and semi fast services to Aylesbury
 
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I broadly do the same, but with changes to phase 3.

I'd cut the Met back to a rebuilt Rickmansworth with longer platforms (and split the service between there and Watford), and convert the fast lines north of Harrow to OHLE for exclusive use of NR, before extending to Aylesbury to meet the phase 1 electrification. You'd need to add a new pair of tracks from the Watford triangle to the new Ricky station, but that's not too onerous. You could cheap out and skip the Ricky rebuilt and extra tracks by using Moor Park as the interchange, but I do feel reaching Ricky would be worthwhile, especially as it'll likely need a wholesale rebuild to lengthen the platforms for longer NR trains anyway.

You can then lengthen the platforms between there and Aylesbury to run longer Chiltern services to increase capacity. You would probably want to build some more southerly Chiltern/Met interchange platforms somewhere along the line as well, perhaps at Wembley Park, or ideally if you could make the room, West Hampstead.

The alternative is to extend the Met to Aylesbury and 4th rail electrify it, but you're going to get better journey times with NR trains - NR is likely more willing to upgrade the fast lines to a proper speed rather than the suboptimal speeds TfL maintains them to for the s-stock, which is optimised for acceleration and not top speed. They peaked at 62mph with the A-stock, but they should be able to easily handle 90mph+ for NR trains given the alignments.
So what do you do about Chesham?
 

mr_jrt

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Probably de-electrify it and run it with a battery unit, or leave the 4th rail and charge off that as I believe there's a substation on the branch. Unit would only need to be able to get to Aylesbury and back for maintenance, which should be in range for any battery units used.
 

Mogz

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Fourth rail as an extension to the Metropolitan Line.

No contest. ;-D
 

AzureOtsu

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A possible solution to the third rail problem is to replicate the East Putney/Wimbledon Park method of binding the fourth centre rail to the running rails to allow for third rail emus to use the shared section, the S Stock trains are already capable of this and would allow for third rail electrification of the entire route.
 

JonathanH

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For phase one the best trains to use would be the currently available 379s for fast and semi fast services to Aylesbury
They will have been out of operation for about ten years by the time electrification could be done though.
 

zwk500

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A possible solution to the third rail problem is to replicate the East Putney/Wimbledon Park method of binding the fourth centre rail to the running rails to allow for third rail emus to use the shared section, the S Stock trains are already capable of this and would allow for third rail electrification of the entire route.
That's not the problem with third rail electrification (or even 4-rail) of the entire route.
 

cle

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I'd cut the Met back to a rebuilt Rickmansworth with longer platforms (and split the service between there and Watford), and convert the fast lines north of Harrow to OHLE for exclusive use of NR, before extending to Aylesbury to meet the phase 1 electrification. You'd need to add a new pair of tracks from the Watford triangle to the new Ricky station, but that's not too onerous. You could cheap out and skip the Ricky rebuilt and extra tracks by using Moor Park as the interchange, but I do feel reaching Ricky would be worthwhile, especially as it'll likely need a wholesale rebuild to lengthen the platforms for longer NR trains anyway.

The neatest solution would have been Moor Park - with Croxley having been done, and all services to Watford Junction. And thus full separation of fast and slow lines - with wires for Chiltern. Chesham would have to either revert to a shuttle, or have a 2tph service to Marylebone, alongside a suggested 2tph Amersham and 2tph Aylesbury VP. If those were merged, Amersham would only have 2tph which might be too little. But if electric and longer, might be workable.

In parallel, the OOC arm of Chiltern would need doing, to free up a few tph at Marylebone to enable 6tph on the Amersham route. Likely the local services, so 2tph High Wycombe and maybe a slower Oxford or Aylesbury pattern (if doesn't end up melding to EWR). If it has capacity for more, a Banbury service also.

But without these, I'd say Amersham route likely stays diesel for now. Or some type of bi/tri mode sub fleet. And priority is getting Marylebone-Oxford done. And hoping that Didcot-Oxford has been done by then!
 

GRALISTAIR

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Two teams, one from Marylebone northwards, one focusing on suburban Birmingham down towards Banbury. New EMU stock with 2 Subclasses: Single-voltage Regional setup with battery option, and Dual-Voltage commuter units for Met sharing.
Phase 1A: Marylebone-High Wycombe, 1B: Wycombe-Oxford, 1C: Bicester-Banbury
Phase 2A Birmingham-Stratford-on-Avon, 2B Tyseley-Stratford/Hatton (depending on Battery), 2C Hatton - Banbury (this team would also wire out to Kidderminster/Stourbridge in a concurrent programme).
Phase 3A: Wembley Jn - limit of LUL electrification, 3B Limit of LUL-Aylesbury, 3C P. Risborough-Aylesbury
Yes. Two teams one from either end would be what I would go for.
 

Meerkat

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Yes. Two teams one from either end would be what I would go for.
Wouldn't you want to go from both ends of the Snow Hill services OR both ends of Chiltern, to get one done faster than two done slower?
Which is more urgent - Chiltern or Snow Hill lines - If you were authorising it right now, presumably you would go for Chiltern and hope the old stock could hold out, but if you have to procure new stock for Chiltern anyway then that's almost a disincentive to start there.
 

zwk500

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Wouldn't you want to go from both ends of the Snow Hill services OR both ends of Chiltern, to get one done faster than two done slower?
Which is more urgent - Chiltern or Snow Hill lines - If you were authorising it right now, presumably you would go for Chiltern and hope the old stock could hold out, but if you have to procure new stock for Chiltern anyway then that's almost a disincentive to start there.
You would have a 'Snow Hill' Team and a 'Marylebone and out' team. The nature of the Snow Hill lines is that you need to do all of it at once or have bi-modes, but Marylebone could be phased outwards.
 

Meerkat

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You would have a 'Snow Hill' Team and a 'Marylebone and out' team. The nature of the Snow Hill lines is that you need to do all of it at once or have bi-modes, but Marylebone could be phased outwards.
If Snow Hill needs doing all at once then wouldn't it be better to have both teams there, getting it done quickly, then restarting at the Marylebone end?
 

zwk500

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If Snow Hill needs doing all at once then wouldn't it be better to have both teams there, getting it done quickly, then restarting at the Marylebone end?
It's not like in the Army, a team is not a fixed size. You'd have 1 big team in Birmingham, probably with sub-teams, but still under 1 overall Programme/Project Manager.
Would the "mother of all Grid Feeders be at Claydon for this project?
You'd probably also need another Feeder or to boost the existing feeder in the Birmingham area. And maybe a secondary feeder in the London area. But Yes Claydon could expect to provide a fair amount of the load.
 

Energy

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Not sure why people are suggesting taking up the 4th rail and changing it to 3rd rail, LU still need to use it. Its not difficult to have both 4th rail and 25kv on the same track.
 

zwk500

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Not sure why people are suggesting taking up the 4th rail and changing it to 3rd rail, LU still need to use it. Its not difficult to have both 4th rail and 25kv on the same track.
It is when one is DC and the other AC. The different feeding and return current arrangements are a complete pain in the proverbial and are the reason why dual system electrification is limited to only 2 places on the network: Euston approach and the thameslink Core. All other 3rd rail/OLE boundaries are only as long as required for the transition.
 

Trainbike46

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It is when one is DC and the other AC. The different feeding and return current arrangements are a complete pain in the proverbial and are the reason why dual system electrification is limited to only 2 places on the network: Euston approach and the thameslink Core. All other 3rd rail/OLE boundaries are only as long as required for the transition.
But the advantage of DC 4th rail instead of DC 3th rail when having dual electrification with AC OHLE is that the return currents for the AC and DC systems are separate, with the AC return via the running rails, and the DC return via one of the two conductor rails, so that should be easier right?

I do agree that it would be daft to change the existing 4th rail to 3rd rail. Either add OHLE for chiltern, or have chiltern buy trains fitted for 4th rail and OHLE, and use 4th rail where it is currently present, and install OHLE on the rest of the network
 
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