Choices Between Different Routes

[Bevan Price]

Who else remembers the 40s being the mainstay of the West Coast Main Line?

Yes - not bad machines, just underpowered for WCML gradients and typical train loads (often as many as 14-15 coaches in the late 1950s / early 1960s. ) 25 mph up Shap if you were lucky - and easily beaten by Pacifics - if you were lucky not to get a typically run-down loco. with poor quality coal (or a disinterested crew).

 

[jimm]

I think it was a bit longer in distance* but was rather longer in time, and probably had less frequent services. I suspect the GWR route was already being run down in the 1950s, until it had a brief renaissance during Euston to New Street electrification. After that services were considerably reduced, until through trains were virtually eliminated, before restoration under Chiltern much more recently.
*(I'm not at home at the moment so can't check)

London-Birmingham services via High Wycombe were not revived by Chiltern. That was done by British Rail in May 1993, with Network South East's new Turbo units running a two-hourly frequency, Monday to Saturday, with a handful of Sunday trains as well - providing an established base for Chiltern to build on.

 

[70014IronDuke]

If you go back to around 1900, you could perhaps say:
Long distance traffic to and from London was relatively lucrative, prestigious and used by influential people, so every major company wanted its share (including the GNR to Manchester via the then MSLR, and even the LNWR to Swansea via Shrewsbury - to give an extreme example!).
I am not sure, though, that it was desperately profitable (especially to Scotland) - certainly not compared with goods and mineral traffic.
Speed was not vital (with some exceptions - but I can only think of London- Birmingham where it was of everyday importance, eg the LNW 2-hour expresses and the GW cut-off); however, facilities (toilets, corridors, dining cars) definitely mattered.
Remember that there was no external competitor pre WW1; this, of course, changed as the motor car and aeroplane developed (and the bus, but not in this market), and speed began to become a factor.

Hmmm. I think you are being a trifle too general there. Remember railways were racing to Plymouth and Aberdeen in the 1860s-70s. Maybe much of that was for the PR rather than any real revenue increases due to any reductions in schedule, but it still mattered. eg I'm sure that if the GC had been able (by some miracle) to offer better London - Manchester train timings, they would have won traffic and trumpeted the achievement for all they were worth.

 

[70014IronDuke]

London-Birmingham services via High Wycombe were not revived by Chiltern. That was done by British Rail in May 1993, with Network South East's new Turbo units running a two-hourly frequency, Monday to Saturday, with a handful of Sunday trains as well - providing an established base for Chiltern to build on.

However, IIRC, it was revived by BR under one Adrian Shooter, who later became ...

 

[70014IronDuke]

Just looked at summer 1958 WR - it was certainly not being run down, with 2-hour trains down at 9.0, 10.10, 11.10 and the semi-fasts under 2 1/2 hours. It was then improved during the electrification works as you say.
Don't know how it compares with LMR but I don't think very different.

Of course not, it was just being run up! But that was because of WCML electrification. I think the PAD - Wolverhampton was more or less hourly by 1965-66. (I await correction if wrong.) But then they turned the juice on to Brum. (that may have been 67, I forget, it was a bit later than the main WCML electric service.)

The LMS had huge tensions between its LNWR and Midland constituencts for much of its early life. In that context, the downgrading of one mainline over the other would have been fiercely opposed by the losing faction.

Yeah. Interesting point. I wonder how much of the London - Manchester traffic took the Midland route between the wars. Any statistics on this around, I wonder?

 

[30907]

Summer 1958 LMR Timetable. London Euston to Birmingham New Street 2-hour trains only ran SX.
From Euston: 08:50; 12:50; 14:20; 17:50; 18:55. All except the 08:50 called at Coventry.
Semi-fasts, and most Saturday trains took between about 2h. 15m. & 2h. 30m. Some Saturday times may have been allowed extra time in preparation for WCML electrification works.
By the Summer 1959 timetable, Euston - Birmingham services had been much reduced, and the fastest SX times were 2h. 03m.

Thanks, confirms my instinct.

Hmmm. I think you are being a trifle too general there. Remember railways were racing to Plymouth and Aberdeen in the 1860s-70s. Maybe much of that was for the PR rather than any real revenue increases due to any reductions in schedule, but it still mattered. eg I'm sure that if the GC had been able (by some miracle) to offer better London - Manchester train timings, they would have won traffic and trumpeted the achievement for all they were worth.

Yes, I'm generalising: there were races in the 1890s to Scotland and 1904-6 from Plymouth, but as you say they were PR and were soon followed by pooling agreements which muted competition.

Of course not, it was just being run up! But that was because of WCML electrification. I think the PAD - Wolverhampton was more or less hourly by 1965-66.

No, in 58-59 the two Birmingham routes were still much "as was" - the hourly service from Padd that you mention came a couple of years later.