Chronic lack of information on delays

[ChewChewTrain]

I’ve lost count of the number of times when a train fails to leave a station on time, and we are told absolutely nothing for 15 minutes or more.

For me, the lack of information makes it so much worse. I think most us accept that, in the real world, delays will inevitably happen. But when we aren’t told anything about why we’re waiting or how long the delay is likely to be, it’s difficult to know whether to stay on the train or catch a different one, what to tell people you’re meeting at the other end, etc. As the scheduled departure time comes and goes, you just don’t know whether it’s going to be a hiccup of a couple of minutes, or something far worse.

Sometimes, those of us with some railway knowledge can use publically available information to piece together what’s probably happening (e.g. “It looks as though we’re just waiting for that faster train to go ahead of us”). But we shouldn’t have to, and that’s hardly fair on those who don’t have that knowledge. And sometimes (e.g. train crew shortage) it’s not really possible to work out what’s going on without being informed.

It is frustrating to know that staff must surely be discussing the reason(s) for the delay with one another, but none of them will tell us what they are. It would only take a few seconds to at least give us an overview.

If it’s simply that there is no financial incentive for train companies to treat us the way their staff would presumably want to be treated in the same situation, then perhaps it’s time for such an incentive to be introduced. Don’t care was made to care. I sometimes wonder if it would improve matters to have an annual “customer satisfaction survey”, asking about issues such as how well informed we’re kept during delays, and fining companies which perform poorly. Delay Repay and punctuality targets are all very well, but how many minutes a train is delayed by is only part of the story.

 

[Bertie the bus]

There is already a bi-annual customer satisfaction survey. It is conducted by Transport Focus and there are 30 questions about many aspects of rail travel, information provided during disruption being one of them. However, Transport Focus, the rail industry and the media always concentrate on the headline overall satisfaction rating and totally ignore ratings for things like information during disruption which is very low and never seems to improve.

 

[seagull]

It is frustrating to know that staff must surely be discussing the reason(s) for the delay with one another, but none of them will tell us what they are. It would only take a few seconds to at least give us an overview.

Not sure how you "know" this to be the case: as in my experience there are numerous occasions where the platform or on-train staff genuinely have no idea what is causing a delay.

 

[wobman]

Not sure how you "know" this to be the case: as in my experience there are numerous occasions where the platform or on-train staff genuinely have no idea what is causing a delay.

Yes this is very true, most times you will see staff asking other staff if they know what's going on.
In many cases the staff are the last to know, its just as frustrating for them.

 

[ChewChewTrain]

Not sure how you "know" this to be the case: as in my experience there are numerous occasions where the platform or on-train staff genuinely have no idea what is causing a delay.

But someone somewhere must surely know what’s going on! I am entirely aware that “customer-facing” staff are frequently not told what’s going on, and sometimes have to beg for information. I am not blaming them.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

But someone somewhere must surely know what’s going on! I am entirely aware that “customer-facing” staff are frequently not told what’s going on, and sometimes have to beg for information. I am not blaming them.

And there in lies the rub that despite the absolutely vast channels of communication now available the industry is incapable of getting the information to the staff trying to deliver the service let alone the passenger. In some respects too much faith has been place in automation which works fine whilst teh service is running reasonably well but can often become frankly unhelpful and misleading when the service is being impacted by a major incident. Oh and the poor platform staff tell you they are controlled from somewhere else we can't change them!

 

[ChewChewTrain]

There is already a bi-annual customer satisfaction survey. It is conducted by Transport Focus and there are 30 questions about many aspects of rail travel, information provided during disruption being one of them. However, Transport Focus, the rail industry and the media always concentrate on the headline overall satisfaction rating and totally ignore ratings for things like information during disruption which is very low and never seems to improve.

Thanks for the useful information. It sounds as though things could be significantly improved with just a little tweaking to the “scoring system” for the survey. Notwithstanding Hanlon’s razor, I wonder whether some are happier for that not to happen.

 

[Fokx]

Most of the time the staff haven’t got a clue either. I’ve lost count the amount of times both myself and my driver have had to work it out for ourselves.

In regards to expected arrival times or disruption times it’s best not to provide this as you ultimately don’t know. A minute at one station can cause a 12 minute delay down the line. Personally I’d rather not state a time as I know I’ll either over-estimate it or under-estimate it. I find it best to simply say “I don’t know” or “usually it’s this length of time but I can’t guarantee it”

 

[ChewChewTrain]

And there in lies the rub that despite the absolutely vast channels of communication now available the industry is incapable of getting the information to the staff trying to deliver the service let alone the passenger. In some respects too much faith has been place in automation which works fine whilst teh service is running reasonably well but can often become frankly unhelpful and misleading when the service is being impacted by a major incident. Oh and the poor platform staff tell you they are controlled from somewhere else we can't change them!

Is there an automated system the industry uses to record why trains have been delayed? Just allowing passengers (and staff on the ground) to look at that would surely be a start.

 

[Fokx]

Is there an automated system the industry uses to record why trains have been delayed? Just allowing passengers (and staff on the ground) to look at that would surely be a start.

In the first few minutes it usually appears as “problem under investigation” which means absolutely anything is currently happening

 

[ChewChewTrain]

“usually it’s this length of time but I can’t guarantee it”

I’d be happy enough just with that kind of prediction. I don’t demand or expect clairvoyance!

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Is there an automated system the industry uses to record why trains have been delayed? Just allowing passengers (and staff on the ground) to look at that would surely be a start.

Sort of its called TRUST and will automatically record the trains actual time passing a timing point and whether its in delay or not. To know why its delayed needed somebody to find out sometimes its obvious like a TSR, infrastructure failure etc but when it isn't my experience is in big panel boxes the signallers are too busy too often to find out especially when the service is disrupted. The bigger issue isn't cause though its how its responded to and what it means to the service and getting that communicated out to front line staff this is where it falls short all too often.

 

[jfollows]

The information doesn't make it through to the passengers, the process for disseminating the information is patchy and doesn't work well.
Last time I was at Euston we ended up being 50 minutes late leaving because of a lineside fire. Fair enough, we were told about this reasonably quickly, but after that all we were told was along the lines of "in my experience these things take a couple of hours to fix" or similar. Chap behind me started phoning people about flying to Manchester via Heathrow.
Then we were told "no trains are leaving Euston". Except they were - I had seen a Voyager leave 5 minutes before. So clearly the issue had become one of the power being turned off, not the line being blocked.
Essentially we had no more information until we started moving 50 minutes late. But I knew we were going to leave because I could see the signals and other trains on Open Train times.
The problem is that the train conductor couldn't do what I was doing, he had other things to look after, and sitting playing with his mobile phone wasn't one of them. But clearly the information was there, it just couldn't make it through to him, after which he could have informed the rest of the passengers.
At one point we were advised to walk off the train onto the concourse because we wouldn't be leaving for a while anyway.
Fortunately my fellow passenger gave up on the silly idea of going to Heathrow and stayed put. Also i stayed put. Anyone who wandered off would have been left behind!
I'm not quite sure what the point of this ramble is, except to say that the information is there, but it doesn't get communicated, and if the person on the train in charge of communication doesn't get told, then it's not his fault. Although his advice to wander off does seem a bit wonky!

 

[endofthetunnel]

In many cases “we don’t know what’s happening” is a better answer than what jfellows moans about above - frequently these situations evolve, plans change, and new ones are formed in and of the moment.

I absolutely think that better information should be shared with everyone, staff and public, especially in longer term disruption. But this forum is full of threads about ‘not saying “problems under investigation” just tell us what it is’ for example.
Well, it often is a problem under investigation to begin with until it’s been investigated!

In disruption I was dealing with today (as a signaller) there were 4 different plans to deal with some trains before we eventually put one into action that worked…
1 plan was foiled by a driver route knowledge
1 plan changed, as a guard had diagram issues
1 of these plans was amended by the TOC before I even had chance to pass the info to all the drivers in question as I was also dealing with the rest of the trains in the situation, and those others blissfully unaware running normally on other bits of the panel.

All I’m saying is that sometimes, no information is the honest answer.

 

[Horizon22]

I’ve lost count of the number of times when a train fails to leave a station on time, and we are told absolutely nothing for 15 minutes or more.

Any particular location this seems to be happening more than others? Specific stations or TOCs? On-train or on station? Does the CIS delay not tick over at all? Or is a lack of a reason that more concerns you? Or do you aprpeciate a manual PA? (many do)

For me, the lack of information makes it so much worse. I think most us accept that, in the real world, delays will inevitably happen. But when we aren’t told anything about why we’re waiting or how long the delay is likely to be, it’s difficult to know whether to stay on the train or catch a different one, what to tell people you’re meeting at the other end, etc. As the scheduled departure time comes and goes, you just don’t know whether it’s going to be a hiccup of a couple of minutes, or something far worse.

This is true it can be frustrating not being in the know. After 3 minutes of a train not moving it should show up as "Delayed" normally, and then eventually it will require manual intervention to estimate the length of the delay.

Sometimes, those of us with some railway knowledge can use publically available information to piece together what’s probably happening (e.g. “It looks as though we’re just waiting for that faster train to go ahead of us”). But we shouldn’t have to, and that’s hardly fair on those who don’t have that knowledge. And sometimes (e.g. train crew shortage) it’s not really possible to work out what’s going on without being informed.

Is it on-train or on-station information quality you're more concerned about? Because that will be the responsibility of different people. Certainly the former is harder to always get right due to a variety of factors which we could discuss here. Sometimes there's partial information given out for reasons of brevity, or staff may elect to only give broad details about it, whilst detailed information is available, sometimes it requires certain skills to disseminate that into language that will be useful for passengers, especially if there's a crowd of some source (e.g. at a station)

In addition things can happen very suddenly and the people that might be responsible to give you that information (e.g. a driver on a DOO train) are unavailable to do it at that time because they are occupied with other safety-critical tasks.

It is frustrating to know that staff must surely be discussing the reason(s) for the delay with one another, but none of them will tell us what they are. It would only take a few seconds to at least give us an overview.

If it’s simply that there is no financial incentive for train companies to treat us the way their staff would presumably want to be treated in the same situation, then perhaps it’s time for such an incentive to be introduced. Don’t care was made to care. I sometimes wonder if it would improve matters to have an annual “customer satisfaction survey”, asking about issues such as how well informed we’re kept during delays, and fining companies which perform poorly. Delay Repay and punctuality targets are all very well, but how many minutes a train is delayed by is only part of the story.

Again which staff are discussing the delays? Have you asked them and be shrugged off? That is indeed bad customer service and information. It is preferable to go "apologies I don't know right now but I'm awaiting an email/let me radio control/let me phone someone to find out more.

As per anywhere, there are staff that will go the extra mile, and staff that really ought not to be employed by the railway any more. That being said information provision and accurate, clear and prompt communication of said information is a hot topic at most TOCs and there is certainly recognition it's not a point where it should be although it can be fiendishly difficult to get right, 100% of the time. I have a fair bit of experience in this area, so it's never as easy as many commenters say it is, but that doesn't mean it can't be done better (significantly so in certain cases).

 

[Runningaround]

Personally I don't care why the train is delayed as there is nothing I can do about it unless they want a push I don't want a load of waffle about what happened, why and where and who's to blame, if it's serious it will be on the news or here.
All I want to know is how late I might be, will I miss a connection, can I catch another service. All straight to the point and not losing important information, through the jumble of pointless ones.

 

[bunnahabhain]

Sometimes it just isn't possible to provide information. I recently dealt with a medical emergency onboard my train, which whilst obvious to those who had boarded in that coach, it won't have been noticed by those elsewhere, and my priorities at that time were dealing with emergency services, the patient, control and other TOC staff to get the best possible outcome for the patient. Subsequently as soon as we got going an explanation was provided and all but a few had nothing to say regarding the delay.

 

[flitwickbeds]

Personally I don't care why the train is delayed as there is nothing I can do about it unless they want a push I don't want a load of waffle about what happened, why and where and who's to blame, if it's serious it will be on the news or here.
All I want to know is how late I might be, will I miss a connection, can I catch another service. All straight to the point and not losing important information, through the jumble of pointless ones.

And if that information isn't known? Are you happy for absolute radio silence until a time estimate is available? Even if you're stuck between stations on a non moving train in the darkness for 3 hours?

I’d be happy enough just with that kind of prediction. I don’t demand or expect clairvoyance!

And what will you do with that time estimate once received? What happens if you replan your journey and the estimate turns out to be completely off the mark?

 

[birchesgreen]

And if that information isn't known? Are you happy for absolute radio silence until a time estimate is available? Even if you're stuck between stations on a non moving train in the darkness for 3 hours?

And what will you do with that time estimate once received? What happens if you replan your journey and the estimate turns out to be completely off the mark?

It is psychologically more comforting to know this information even if there is nothing you can do with it.

 

[flitwickbeds]

It is psychologically more comforting to know this information even if there is nothing you can do with it.

I agree - I want information as much as possible but this is purely from a curiosity point of view and until I'm told the train is going nowhere and everyone should get off, I'll stick with my original journey plan. I don't think the two posters I quoted above agree, which is why I was asking.

 

[Typhoon]

Then we were told "no trains are leaving Euston". Except they were - I had seen a Voyager leave 5 minutes before.

In many cases “we don’t know what’s happening” is a better answer than what jfellows moans about above - frequently these situations evolve, plans change, and new ones are formed in and of the moment.
...
All I’m saying is that sometimes, no information is the honest answer.

This is important. The on-board staff member is most passenger's sole link the outside world (sorry, can't think of a better way of putting it). If passengers can visibly see that what they are saying is untrue, they will have much less or no confidence in future announcements. I would have thought that a response similar to "We are currently awaiting (further) information from ..." (rather than "We don't know what's happening") would do, that way mistrust is dissipated and diverted to some amorphous body which most passengers have no knowledge of rather than the person who is not that many yards away.
Stuff happens and most delays are resolved within a few minutes. When the delay is longer, passengers need to be given accurate, realistic information; where that is not possible, nothing is better than speculative. "We should be moving in fifteen minutes" will be interpreted as "We will be moving in fifteen minutes" (or more likely twelve minutes) by some of the more vocal passengers. If a staff member feels compelled to be (quite) specific they need to remember that, as ever in life, it is better to under-promise and over-deliver.

And if that information isn't known? Are you happy for absolute radio silence until a time estimate is available? Even if you're stuck between stations on a non moving train in the darkness for 3 hours?

No. Even if it is vague - "A maintenance party is currently heading to the site of the blockage." Short - but something.

(Sorry for non-rail language, I am not a rail person but am contributing because it is the likes of me that will be getting anxious, irritated, annoyed. Those in the trade are probably well aware of a likely blockage point up ahead and are tracking every movement (or not) on the line via an app.)

 

[Spartacus]

Is there an automated system the industry uses to record why trains have been delayed? Just allowing passengers (and staff on the ground) to look at that would surely be a start.

Not really for why. Some things can be automated to an extent, such as TSRs, ESRs, but even then it's limited to single lines and standard 2 track railways as a speed restriction time loss won't be automatically attributed, or 'networked' if the train can run on an alternative line. Generally it's down to Train Delay Attribution level 1 staff to investigate through whatever means necessary (logged faults, phone calls to boxes/stations, operator/control email checks, WONs, TSR/ESR checks, incident logs, or simply replaying how trains have run) in order to attribute the delay.

Sometimes it can take a log time due to how busy we are; there can be a hell of a lot going on over the wide areas we cover, sometimes it can take a long time due to one delay being a bit tough, or sometimes very tough to explain.

Even something as simple as a late start from a station.
Was it late inward?
Have any faults being logged with the train or infrastructure?
Has there been a set swap?
Has it been waiting signal due to a late service?
Did it TRTS on time?
Were the crew late (and there might be a few to try and check)?

Even if you narrow it down to late crew, why were they late?
Diagram swap?
Shortage?
Rostering error?
Short notice sickness?
On a late inward service?

Even why all the info's forthcoming easily all that takes time, and that's assuming you've nothing else to do, which is rare. You don't want to ring large boxes each time you get an unexplained delay otherwise the SSM will spend half their shift on the phone to you, and the other half ignoring your calls because they've other things to do too, and so do their signallers, so you often wait until you've a few to ring about, so that delays the process a little bit more.

There's also obviously the time it takes for this info to get across. Signaller might know, but signaller might be too busy signalling trains to pass the info on immediately, and writing out control logs, and getting them right takes a bit of time.

There's also the nature of dealing with something that's practically happening in real time. What first gets logged as being the facts can change as more info comes to light. Taking the above example a delay logged to a late driver might be reasonably quickly reattributed to a late inward crew off another service, so might then be explained down to anything, some TOCs don't have their traincrew diagrams in TRUST so the info isn't easy to get. Some guards might pass that delay on as a 'waiting driver', or to the cause of the driver being late, that depends on them and how up to date their info is, they've other things to do other than check what the delays' attributed to all the time. Similarly one train following a late one might be simply explained by some as 'following late' or as the reason the train you're following is late in the first place. All trains stopped can turn into trains allowed to pass or move to a certain point before you've even finished writing that up.

 

[muz379]

In some places the number of control staff is very small compared to the number of services running/geographical area covered . This is all good and well when everything is running smoothly . But with disruption they quickly become overwhelmed with phone calls from crew, traincrew superviors and station staff trying to find out what is happening . It then becomes very difficult to get information to pass onto passengers .

Of course recently control staff have been hit by similar staff shortages due to covid , long term sickness with people unable to have routine procedures , staff leaving and not being replaced . This only seeks to exacerbate the problem .

 

[voyagerdude220]

Then we were told "no trains are leaving Euston". Except they were - I had seen a Voyager leave 5 minutes before. So clearly the issue had become one of the power being turned off, not the line being blocked.

I seem to remember looking at Tyrell messaging system noticing the same- the messages state "all lines blocked" yet there was a subsequent message about the service formed 2x221 running- so presumably lines were blocked to electric traction.

 

[jfollows]

I seem to remember looking at Tyrell messaging system noticing the same- the messages state "all lines blocked" yet there was a subsequent message about the service formed 2x221 running- so presumably lines were blocked to electric traction.

In my particular example, all lines were blocked after the 16:30 Euston-Glasgow, because of a lineside fire in the Harrow area, and then the overhead power was turned off - that was audible and the train conductor mentioned it also.
I was on the 16:40 Euston-Manchester.
After about 30 minutes a Voyager left on a Birmingham (I think) service, so I concluded at that point that the line was no longer blocked but the overhead power was clearly still off.
Then after about 50 minutes we audibly had overhead power restored, the signals cleared, and we left first in the queue with absolutely nothing in front of us of course. Unfortunately we ended up 57 minutes late (and not 61) into Wilmslow because of the Crewe-Manchester stopper.
But I was able to work out what was going on much easier (apparently) than the train conductor who was seemingly helpful but vague. He could even have been taken by surprise when we did leave because we had no announcements telling people who might have been thinking of leaving the train not to.
But I don't know how it could have been better in reality; in theory the information I'd worked out could have been communicated but it's not simple to join up the information flow.

 

[Runningaround]

And if that information isn't known? Are you happy for absolute radio silence until a time estimate is available? Even if you're stuck between stations on a non moving train in the darkness for 3 hours?

And what will you do with that time estimate once received? What happens if you replan your journey and the estimate turns out to be completely off the mark?

You are stuck on the train. All I need to know is how long for and what to do when I can get off. Unless i'm a train mechanic or in a position to change the situation there's nothing I can do.

 

[Phil56]

Personally, it's the "fobbing off" I get really annoyed about, where you're told that there's a 20 minute delay, then after half an hour, you're told "just another 15 mins", etc etc until you've been stuck there 2/3 hours. I just wish they'd be honest in the first place and say "probably 2-3 hours" so we could make alternative plans, i.e. different route, taxi, cancel, or whatever, or at least to give you the chance to warn people you're meeting at the other end so they're not sat around like lemons either!

Last year, on a day trip. We arrived back at the station after the 2 hours stay, to find a different train in our platform (bay), but same line/similar destination, so there was clearly a problem. The departure board showed the different train, continued to show the normal departure time, but it was already 30 minutes late, nothing on the screen to give an updated time and not even marked as "delayed". We noticed our train on a different platform (a main line "through" platform) despite it starting from that station. Nothing on the screens for it at all. Just the screens on the side of the carriages. We got on, the departure time came and went, but no announcements. Passengers were starting to get annoyed, asking platform staff, etc. No sign of the guard. I looked on RTT and diagrams and Railcam websites and saw a broken down freight train blocking our line. I said to my wife and fellow travellers, it's a 2/3 hour delay to get a rescue loco, get the train moved, etc. Then there was an onboard announcement saying there was a broken down train, a rescue loco was being sent and we'd be away in 30 minutes! I knew that was a pack of lies as the rescue Loco hadn't even set off and was 30 minutes away itself, and there'd be another hour or so for it to couple up, reverse back to cross to the opposite line etc. After 30 minutes, we set off and the passengers thought we were on our way. I knew we weren't as the line was still blocked. We were parked up in a siding just outside the station - cue lots more moans from the passengers who'd been led to believe we were on our way. I continued to watch the websites to see the usual slow progress. Guard kept coming on the intercom saying we'd be on our way in a few minutes. We were stuck in that siding for over an hour! We'd just been moved out of the station to stop us blocking the main line through platforms! After an hour we were on the move again, but I could see the broken down train was still there. After 5/10 minutes we stopped again, according to the diagrams, we were now in a queue, 2 other local trains ahead of us in the next blocks, but at least I could see the rescue loco on the diagram running wrong way on the other line towards it. Guard came on saying the rescue loco was pulling the broken down train out of the way and we'd be off shortly. It wasn't - it was still a block away on the diagram. I'd like to give benefit of the doubt that the guard was being fed misinformation and passing on what he was being told, but I think more likely he was just fobbing off to give the impression we were always just 15 mins or so from moving on, just to stop passengers getting irate!

Some of our fellow passengers were certainly annoyed as one group could have gone a slightly different route to by-pass the obstruction. A couple of others weren't actually that bothered about travelling that day and would have just got off and gone another day if they'd been told the reality. In fact lots of people would have got off at the station, or not gone on at all if they'd been told the truth from the outset. And then the railways (well the workers) wonder why passengers start getting annoyed and aggressive!

 

[Horizon22]

It is psychologically more comforting to know this information even if there is nothing you can do with it.

But is poor form to over-promise, as opposed to saying “sorry we simply don’t know, here’s your other options”. Someone expecting a 30 minute delay is going to be pretty annoyed when it ends up being 90 minutes.

Many incidents can be complex and rely on multiple factors that are most of the time simply unknown and variable that will determine the length of the time for delay. These are incidents like items on the track, a multiple signal failure, and fatalities. These require response units, testing of infrastructure, movement/diversion/cancellation of trains around the issue and cause crew displacement, all of which. An also cause congestion. Even once the train gets moving, there’s no sure way of knowing it will continue at like speed or won’t get caught in congestion so lose more time on route. It is often a fools errand to be completely confident about how long X train might get to Y destination; the best staff can do is give an estimate but make it clear it is this, but it could be longer.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It is psychologically more comforting to know this information even if there is nothing you can do with it.

One practice airlines use which the railway could do well to adopt is "next information in X", i.e. when an announcement is made of a problem, they state when the next announcement will be, and then make it even if nothing has changed.

But is poor form to over-promise, as opposed to saying “sorry we simply don’t know, here’s your other options”. Someone expecting a 30 minute delay is going to be pretty annoyed when it ends up being 90 minutes.

Though saying "sorry, we don't know" and giving some element of progress does have value. For instance, if you're sitting in the middle of nowhere it is more reassuring to have "a fitter has now arrived at the train, we will let you know when they have said how long they think it will be" than just nothing at all.

Reassurance about connections is also important. Many people don't for instance know that if you miss a booked Advance train because of a delay to another train, whether on one ticket or splits, you are entitled to take the next train of the same TOC. It probably suits the railway for this not to be known - a lot of people will say nothing and buy another ticket...

 

[Horizon22]

Though saying "sorry, we don't know" and giving some element of progress does have value. For instance, if you're sitting in the middle of nowhere it is more reassuring to have "a fitter has now arrived at the train, we will let you know when they have said how long they think it will be" than just nothing at all.

Reassurance about connections is also important. Many people don't for instance know that if you miss a booked Advance train because of a delay to another train, whether on one ticket or splits, you are entitled to take the next train of the same TOC. It probably suits the railway for this not to be known - a lot of people will say nothing and buy another ticket...

I agree and that’s what I said - an update is important to provide even if it is “sorry we currently have no further update on when this train will move / when services will resume / when your train arrives, but another update will be provided soon”