Circling of date on ticket?

[BlueFox]

Why do guards circle the date on a ticket?

Is it used to signify that the ticket was used on that date?


I used an anytime return on Monday (5/2), which was valid from last Friday (2/2), but my plans changed so I delayed my trip. I used the outbound and return parts of the ticket on the same day.

For the first leg of the return part of the journey, the guard circled the date, which was 2/2, when I used the ticket on 5/2. I'm about to make a delay repay claim for the journey and I'm concerned that it will look like I'm making a claim for a journey I didn't make.

 

[Nick66]

I think it’s just a mark they put on the ticket to say that it has been used. Sometimes they’ll punch a hole, sometimes they have a stamp and sometimes they just mark it with a pen. No real pattern to what happens when in my recent experience.

 

[telstarbox]

Yes - to stop passengers trying to use it as a season ticket.

 

[BlueFox]

I think it’s just a mark they put on the ticket to say that it has been used. Sometimes they’ll punch a hole, sometimes they have a stamp and sometimes they just mark it with a pen. No real pattern to what happens when in my recent experience.

This was a very specific circling of the start date of the ticket though, rather then the usual scribble.

 

[lyndhurst25]

Circling the date is pointless and conveys no more information than a simple signature scribble or hole punch. Some guards write the actual date on tickets. Others have been known to scribble out the "valid until" date. All these actions do are show that the ticket has, at least in part, been used. It doesn't tell anyone between which stations the ticket has been used, if you were to break your journey overnight(s) for example. I've been falsely accused of reusing a ticket with the previous day's date written on it by a guard, after an overnight break of journey.

 

[gazthomas]

This week I’ve had tickets punched with a hole, graffitied with pen, the day/month circled, the train code written on and a proper stamp!

 

[gray1404]

I really don't like it when they start crossing dates out. It is wrong.

 

[Llanigraham]

I really don't like it when they start crossing dates out. It is wrong.

Why is it wrong?
The ticket is the property of the Company and if their "servant" wants to cross out something, then so be it.

 

[gazthomas]

That’s an interesting one - who is the Company? The ticket retailer or one of many franchise operators who may be providing you carriage?

 

[TUC]

Why is it wrong?
The ticket is the property of the Company and if their "servant" wants to cross out something, then so be it.

Whilst I'm relaxed about such scribbling-it doesn't affect a ticket's validity at the end of the day-the above does seem a strangely passive view. Just because someone is he servant of a company doesn't make everything they do right or beyond challenge.

 

[Nick66]

This week I’ve had tickets punched with a hole, graffitied with pen, the day/month circled, the train code written on and a proper stamp!

Glad I’m not the only one! I don’t think there’s anything to read into it but I do think it should be standardised somehow

 

[gray1404]

Why is it wrong?
The ticket is the property of the Company and if their "servant" wants to cross out something, then so be it.

1. It is struck through as if to take away any further validity - see image above - and imply customer looses their right to complete the journey over the 5 days/1 month.
2. It can make information on the ticket, such as the valid until date, unreadable.
3. It can lead to a customer being incorrectly told their ticket is no longer valid, ordered to buy another ticket or refused access to trains.

It seems to be a problem such ticket marking with some Northern guards. Given its quite a few it makes me wonder if such incorrect training has come from the top down and why they have such a problem with customers being allowed to break their journey.

 

[Nick66]

You make a good point that a mark on a ticket may make it unreadable and cause a potential problem on a connecting train. I’ve never thought of it like that because I always use Advance tickets but as I asked above, should this not be standardised?

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

I would suggest, there are more people who would try and use their ticket fraudulently (over and over for a month) than passengers who would use a BOJ into another date. So there would be minimal complaints regarding this.

I know I am going into dangerous territory now Re Northern being the main culprits of this....but is it a step too far to suggest that Northern serve some of the towns and cities with the highest poverty levels in the UK with the least likely of passengers to overnight use a BOJ? So is this why they do it?

 

[yorkie]

Why do guards circle the date on a ticket?

Is it used to signify that the ticket was used on that date?

I don't know but it does not affect the validity.

I'm concerned that it will look like I'm making a claim for a journey I didn't make.

Arguably it doesn't; as you say some Guards will circle the date printed on the ticket regardless of the day it was used on.

Clearly we can all see the circling of the date is meaningless, other than the obvious fact it signifies that the journey has been at least part made (on an unspecified train between unspecified stations on an unspecified date).

 

[gray1404]

My point is that marking a ticket is fine. Crossing out dates or marking in such a way to try to restrict validity is wrongly. The fact that a small number of people may try to use tickets incorrectly does not allow guards to try to impose such unfounded restrictions. The majority of customers use their tickets correctly and I entitled to use them with BoJ over 5 days/1 month.

 

[Albion91]

I had the date written on the return portion of a month valid super off peak ticket a few months ago. I politely asked the guard why he'd written the date and he said it was to stop me using it again. I explained I wanted to break my journey and continue at a later date within the validity of the ticket.

He told me that wasn't allowed and you had to complete the journey on the day you started it - that you were allowed to break your journey, but a new day means a new journey, so it wouldn't count as a break of journey.

I assumed he was wrong, but maybe it's to do with that?

 

[yorkie]

...I explained I wanted to break my journey and continue at a later date within the validity of the ticket.

He told me that wasn't allowed and you had to complete the journey on the day you started it - that you were allowed to break your journey, but a new day means a new journey, so it wouldn't count as a break of journey.

I assumed he was wrong, but maybe it's to do with that?

He was wrong. Please report this, so that the train company can ensure appropriate training is provided in future.

 

[RJ]

On some TOCs, the belief is that once you start your return journey with a SSR/SVR/SOR you must complete it on that day or with a maximum of one night's break of journey, after which the ticket is no longer valid.

This was the case on a TOC I frequently used a couple of years ago and an ex BR guard tried to do me for resuming my return journey some days after I commenced it. A brief went out explaining how return tickets work which apparently came as a surprise to a number of inspectors.

However there are probably some staff who still work to this understanding - don't be fooled into buying a new ticket if you get grief later on!

 

[gray1404]

The guard was totally wrong and I too have been fed this load of BS but a guard too - once you start your journey you must finish it that day and that any BOJ can only be on that same day. It is a total load of rubbish and it has to stop. Which train company did this happen on? For me, it was on Northern.

 

[Bookd]

Whatever the purpose a signature or other graffiti mark on a ticket seems to tell little about why it was done or when. Should there not be a standard punch or stamp - possibly a stamp showing date and the headcode of the train which would at least show when the ticket was used.

 

[Flying Snail]

Part of the problem is that the same staff who go off book in marking tickets are often the ones who do not know the correct ticketing restrictions in the first place.

The main issue is not the staff though it is the lack of a proper procedure in place to deal with open tickets, because of the obvious fraud issue it has created staff are making up their own procedures to try to deal with it.

It really would be simple to bring in a national standard for this. Remove all the print from the backs of tickets and leave it for validation/endorsements only. For any ticket that could be used again fraudulently all that is needed is to put the station name/code of the originating station or next stop on the train that the ticket is checked on.
3 letters on the back of the ticket, that is all that would be required.

For example an Edinburgh-Birmingham ticket; guard from EDI checks and marks ticket as NCL as it is the next stop, if break is taken and resumed from NCL or further south then on next check it is immediately clear that no infringement has taken place and that guard can mark it for the next stop on that service or ask the passenger where they are getting off that train and mark it as that station instead.

Add to that a standard that any allowance given by any authorised person for travel beyond the validity of a ticket must be written onto the ticket itself, now that there is a reserved space for it, that would deal with the "man on the platform said it was OK" conflicts with people using advances on the wrong trains.

 

[Albion91]

It

The guard was totally wrong and I too have been fed this load of BS but a guard too - once you start your journey you must finish it that day and that any BOJ can only be on that same day. It is a total load of rubbish and it has to stop. Which train company did this happen on? For me, it was on Northern.

It was London Midland. I feel like too much time has passed for me to report it now (and I don't remember what day I took the journey on...) but if it happens again I will!

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Realistically, in the absence of the markings suggested by Flying Snail, what is there to prevent the reuse of an Anytime Return ticket as a season ticket? Clearly, if you were seen with the same ticket by the same guard twice on the same leg of the route, that would be pretty clear. But it seems another gaping hole in the system to me. Especially so on journeys so long that it's virtually impossible not to use multiple services of multiple operators, or even impossible to complete on one day.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Realistically, in the absence of the markings suggested by Flying Snail, what is there to prevent the reuse of an Anytime Return ticket as a season ticket? Clearly, if you were seen with the same ticket by the same guard twice on the same leg of the route, that would be pretty clear..

The same thing that catches other fraudsters - plain clothes revenue, CCTV etc etc. The fact fraudsters aren't caught in many areas is down to the train operators weighing up the perceived amount of fraud versus the cost of employing revenue staff to catch them. Revenue protection should not inconvenience or restrict the rights of genuine fare paying customers nor should 'tactics' to deter them do so either.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

The same thing that catches other fraudsters - plain clothes revenue, CCTV etc etc. The fact fraudsters aren't caught in many areas is down to the train operators weighing up the perceived amount of fraud versus the cost of employing revenue staff to catch them. Revenue protection should not inconvenience or restrict the rights of genuine fare paying customers nor should 'tactics' to deter them do so either.

So in other words, luck. I have to say this is one of the 'loopholes' (though illegal, unlike most other 'loopholes') the railway has shown surprisingly little interest in fixing. A solution like Flying Snail suggested would seem relatively cheap and easy to introduce (as ticketing changes go).

 

[xotGD]

So in other words, luck. I have to say this is one of the 'loopholes' (though illegal, unlike most other 'loopholes') the railway has shown surprisingly little interest in fixing. A solution like Flying Snail suggested would seem relatively cheap and easy to introduce (as ticketing changes go).

Having to put your ticket in a barrier that retains it when you reach the final destination (or show it to a member of staff who rips it in half) would stop it being reused the next day.

 

[Starmill]

But it seems another gaping hole in the system to me. Especially so on journeys so long that it's virtually impossible not to use multiple services of multiple operators, or even impossible to complete on one day.

It's really not an issue. It's easy enough to write on the ticket the stations it has been used between. Some guards do this, some don't. It's up to them and the train companies concerned.

 

[Starmill]

I have to say this is one of the 'loopholes'

Actually, re-use of a ticket is a clear breach of the terms and could possibly be fraud if you claim that a used ticket has not been used.
A loophole, by definition, is within the conditions and the law or exploits a vagueness in them. That doesn't really apply to using the same ticket more than once.

 

[6Gman]

It's really not an issue. It's easy enough to write on the ticket the stations it has been used between. Some guards do this, some don't. It's up to them and the train companies concerned.

How is the Guard to know where you are alighting? (Or, in many cases, where you entrained?)