Circular Services and the Routeing Guide (and break of journey)

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hairyhandedfool

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I find it slightly odd that you are generally, with good professional knowledge to support you, somewhat ruthless with your interpretation of the rules; but when it comes to this particular point about through trains you have a surprisingly different attitude. That is an observation, not an attempt to be impolite or provocative.

I appreciate that some of the discussion is about trying to stretch the interpretation of the language used as far as possible - in a sense, that is part of the fun we have on this forum! However, just being sensible and reasonable rather than semantic, I find it hard to believe that the rule about direct trains can mean anything other than indicating an any-permitted ticket from A to B can be used throughout from A to B, without getting off intermediately, on a single train that goes directly from A to B....
I think it is irresponsible of the forum as a whole to indicate something is allowed based on the theory that no-one has been stopped for doing it (which is where many threads would otherwise end up). When I started on the railway, my trainer was of the opinion that whilst it is nice to know all the shortcuts, it's better to know how things should be done and what rules apply so that if things go wrong you know exactly what you have done wrong, what you have got yourself into and possibly a way to get out of it.

So, I prefer the posters are aware of the implications of a decision and the rules that surround it. To that end, I point out where the rules differ from 'popular opinion' and what might happen. I do occasionally point out that what can happen and what does happen aren't always the same.

In the case of through trains, the rules are quite clear and passenger friendly. It's very rare I know, but it does happen.

....Sure, you can use the words to make your assertion but I do not believe that it was ever the intention of the rule to allow multiple breaks of journey on trains that just happened to be going from A to B. I can't see how you think otherwise given your usual approach - nothing wrong with your usual approach - and (getting to my point) I therefore strongly feel it is not at all responsible for this forum to be suggesting it's OK. ...
The rules are clear, through trains always follow a permitted route (NRCoC Condition 13) and break of journey is allowed along any permitted route unless a ticket prohibits it (NRCoC Condition 16).

....A keen RPI could easily decide to go straight for intent to avoid payment if someone tried to use an Overpool to Ellesmere Port ticket to travel from Overpool to Liverpool. I guess I am saying that I agree with Yorkie and First Class, and that the more straightforward interpretation is the one we should be giving.
An RPI could do that, however, I would be surprise if, when faced by evidence in the contract (NRCoC), the TOC and/or it's agents continued any proceedings against the ticket holder.

....I have to concede that if you alight from a direct train and exit the station, a defence of "But I am on a direct train", seems absurd....
It does seem absurd, but I know of no rules that prohibit break of journey on permitted routes where the ticket normally allows break of journey. If there is such a rule I would welcome it being highlighted as it is off benefit to us all to know it. Currently I believe this situation is adequately covered by NRCoC Condition 13 and 16.
 
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It's the same as Clapham Junction - Earlsfield being valid via Richmond, Strawberry Hill and Wimbledon. Yes it's valid but I wouldn't like to chance it or expect to get away with it for very long.



A bargain if you want to accumulate some 507 mileage :D
How would the work with season tickets? If I had a Wimbledon- Waterloo season ticket could I use it via Kingston and Twickenham getting off anywhere intermediately?
 

yorkie

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It does seem absurd, but I know of no rules that prohibit break of journey on permitted routes where the ticket normally allows break of journey.
If there is such a rule I would welcome it being highlighted as it is off benefit to us all to know it.
I expect this to be clarified at some point.

I hope it is, because ATOC aren't going to simply allow people to buy season tickets between a pair of nearby stations and then go to a distant station on a loop and claim break of journey. It appears the instructions are to allow people to make such long journeys providing they do not get off. Or in other words, a direct train means you must use it as a direct train.

The alternative is a far more draconian action that attempts to erode our rights to travel by direct trains :(
 

OwlMan

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The rules are clear, through trains always follow a permitted route (NRCoC Condition 13) and break of journey is allowed along any permitted route unless a ticket prohibits it (NRCoC Condition 16).
But that is NOT what the NRCoC say.

NRCoC
13. The route you are entitled to take
(a) You may travel between the stations shown on the ticket you hold in:
(i) a through train;
(ii) trains which take the shortest route which can be used by scheduled
passenger services; or
(iii) trains which take the routes shown in the National Routeing Guide
(details as to how you can obtain this information will be available
when you buy your ticket).
The route you are entitled to take (a) you may travel between the stations shown on the ticket you hold in: (i) a through train.....
Once you get off that through train you are no longer travelling between the stations shown on the ticket..on a through train - therefore your ticket is not valid if you get off that through train at an intermediate station (of course if the route is otherwise valid - the shortest or a mapped route - then you are allowed to get off the train).
Note that the t&cs say "A through train" not "through trains" as you stated.

Peter
 

hairyhandedfool

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I doubt a clarification from ATOC would be beneficial to the public.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
But that is NOT what the NRCoC say.



The route you are entitled to take (a) you may travel between the stations shown on the ticket you hold in: (i) a through train.....
Once you get off that through train you are no longer travelling between the stations shown on the ticket..on a through train - therefore your ticket is not valid if you get off that through train at an intermediate station (of course if the route is otherwise valid - the shortest or a mapped route - then you are allowed to get off the train).
Note that the t&cs say "A through train" not "through trains" as you stated.

Peter
Through trains are not excluded from condition 16 which allows break of journey. The Routeing Guide also states....

Most customers wish to make journeys by through trains or by the
shortest route. In both cases they will be travelling on a permitted route,
provided the correct fare has been paid to reflect any routeing indicated by
the fares manual. You only need refer to the Routeing Guide when a
customer is not using an advertised through train or the shortest route. A
through train is advertised in the passenger railway timetable as a direct
service which offers travel between a customer’s origin station and final
destination, as printed on the ticket for the journey being made.
If I was travelling from Liverpool to Manchester and broke my journey at Warrington, at what point do you think I am not travelling to Manchester?
 

sheff1

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Through trains are not excluded from condition 16 which allows break of journey....
... and allows you to start at any intermediate station or end your journey before the destination shown on the ticket.
The condition also states 'as long as the ticket you hold is valid for the trains you want to use'.

As a ticket is always valid on a through train, then the Condition clearly allows you to start or finish short as long as, when you are travelling, it is on a through train from the origin to destination stations on your ticket.

So an Overpool to Ellesmere Port ticket must be valid to start at say Hooton and finish at Liverpool Central as long as the train(s) you use are through ones from Overpool to Ellesmere Port, i.e. you could not use this ticket on a Chester train between Hooton and Liverpool.
 

First class

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Reading the views on here I see this as a strong risk to revenue.

The technical/legal/contractual solution is likely see an increase in all of these Any Permitted fares at a price to reflect it's validity via Liverpool and introduce a route NOT BIRKNHD/LPOOL flow at the existing price. It would be easier to put a restriction like 4C on the Anytime fare but with dubious enforcement options.



Still, rather a lot of paperwork. Depends whether anyone actually uses them. Will be interesting to see whether Bache-Chester flows increase and Bache-Liverpool decrease.
 
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LexyBoy

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Through trains are not excluded from condition 16 which allows break of journey. The Routeing Guide also states....

Most customers wish to make journeys by through trains or by the
shortest route. In both cases they will be travelling on a permitted route,
provided the correct fare has been paid to reflect any routeing indicated by
the fares manual. You only need refer to the Routeing Guide when a
customer is not using an advertised through train or the shortest route. A
through train is advertised in the passenger railway timetable as a direct
service which offers travel between a customer’s origin station and final
destination, as printed on the ticket for the journey being made.
If I was travelling from Liverpool to Manchester and broke my journey at Warrington, at what point do you think I am not travelling to Manchester?
I think collybs meant that NRCoC 13(a)(i) allows travel on a through train irrespective of whether that route is permitted according to the RG (in which case it would fall under 13(a)(iii)). Breaking your journey would surely mean it's no longer a direct train, so unless your route is covered by either (ii) or (iii) - as your Liverpool-Manchester example is - it's not [meant to be] valid.

However, I agree that the quote from the RG does appear to allow it:
Most customers wish to make journeys by through trains or by the
shortest route. In both cases they will be travelling on a permitted route[...]
The bolded part appears to make the routes taken by direct trains permitted, rather than travel on those trains which is presumably the intention. If it read "Travel on a direct train is always permitted, and the shortest route is permitted provided the correct fare has been paid to reflect any routeing indicated by the fares manual" this anomaly would not occur (and it wouldn't affect the passenger's right to travel the long way round).
 

Deerfold

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The bolded part appears to make the routes taken by direct trains permitted, rather than travel on those trains which is presumably the intention. If it read "Travel on a direct train is always permitted, and the shortest route is permitted provided the correct fare has been paid to reflect any routeing indicated by the fares manual" this anomaly would not occur (and it wouldn't affect the passenger's right to travel the long way round).
Hmm, could we end up with "permitted routes" and, distinct from that, "permitted trains"?
 

hairyhandedfool

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I think collybs meant that NRCoC 13(a)(i) allows travel on a through train irrespective of whether that route is permitted according to the RG (in which case it would fall under 13(a)(iii)). Breaking your journey would surely mean it's no longer a direct train, so unless your route is covered by either (ii) or (iii) - as your Liverpool-Manchester example is - it's not [meant to be] valid....
I understand his point, I don't agree with it. I can travel on a through train and, if I wish, decide during that journey that I need a break, I am perfectly allowed to do this (condition 16), if I then choose to rejoin a through service I am still travelling to the destination from the origin on a through service (condition 13).

My point with the Liverpool-Manchester example is to illustrate that even though I have broken my journey in Warrington, I am still travelling to Manchester on through services.
 

tony_mac

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I agree with hairyhandedfool.

I can't see that it is clearly stated that no break of journey is allowed when travelling on direct trains, and I wouldn't expect to. I think that the instructions for allowing break of journey (e.g. on anytime tickets) must take precedence as they are clearly stated rather than inferred.

There are plenty of sensible journeys that are only valid on direct trains, and I think an attempt to restrict break of journeys on those would be wrong. (Liverpool to Warrington Bank Quay was one that came up recently).


However, I wouldn't be surprised to see a prosecution for this one (e.g. if done regularly). It's obviously absurd and Magistrates are quite likely to side with common-sense rather than a literal interpretation of the rules, and could easily decide that passing through the origin station again means that it is obviously not a direct train to the destination.
 

island

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I agree that as written, there is nothing to stop people breaking their journey or stopping short on a route that is only permitted by virtue of it being a through train. I will trot out my favourite example of a £1.80 SDS from Lee (London) to Greenwich route NOT LONDON, which is valid on the Southeastern circle services via Crayford and Slade Green — by the rules as written, there doesn't seem to be anything stopping one from using it to get to Crayford only, which should cost £3.40. [The mapped route would be between routeing points Hither Green and Charlton, as Lee's other routeing points Dartford and Slade Green would fail the fare check; this must involve travel Lee-Hither Green-Lewisham-Charlton-Greenwich.]

However, it is well outside the spirit of the rules, and I wouldn't be surprised if [a] it was changed and a magistrates court convicted someone of attempting to avoid payment of their fare if they tried to do this.
 
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Deerfold

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However, it is well outside the spirit of the rules, and I wouldn't be surprised if <...> a magistrates court convicted someone of attempting to pay their fare if they tried to do this.


I hope it's not got so bad that you can be convicted for attempting to pay your fare!
 

LexyBoy

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My point with the Liverpool-Manchester example is to illustrate that even though I have broken my journey in Warrington, I am still travelling to Manchester on through services.
I see now - so I suppose the question is whether it's still a "through service" if you break your journey. I can see both sides here - the NRCoC does say "a through train", not "through trains", but clearly the train is still a through train, whatever a passenger may do.

Hmm, could we end up with "permitted routes" and, distinct from that, "permitted trains"?
Well, "permitted trains" are surely trains travelling over all or part of a permitted route for a given ticket, plus any trains allowed by the NRCoC in addition to the permitted routes defined in the RG.

A direct train is valid whether or not it is travelling on a permitted route (although the RG seems to state that the presence of a direct train makes that route permitted, which is not the intention I believe).
 

Solent&Wessex

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Most customers wish to make journeys by through trains or by the
shortest route. In both cases they will be travelling on a permitted route,
provided the correct fare has been paid to reflect any routeing indicated by
the fares manual. You only need refer to the Routeing Guide when a
customer is not using an advertised through train or the shortest route. A
through train is advertised in the passenger railway timetable as a direct
service which offers travel between a customer’s origin station and final
destination, as printed on the ticket for the journey being made.
But we go back to an earlier argument.

Is this service on Merseyrail, or many of the other circular services advertised as a through service in the Passenger Railway Timetable, which I always take to be the National Rail Timetable. The Working Timetable is not the same as the Passenger Timetable. Looking at Table 106 none of these services are apparently advertised as through / circular services. In which case while they may work as circular services, they are not advertised as such in the passenger timetable. Whilst I acknowledge they run round the loop in Liverpool, actually no mention of this is made in Table 106 (apart from the map), and this is to some extent a special case.

There are a number of services which are, in the WTT Manchester Piccadilly to Manchester Piccadilly services which go via Glossop and Hadfield. Are they shown in the passenger timetable as such - No. Does this mean that a Ashburys to Manchester ticket is valid to go round the scenic tour of Glossop and Hadfield? No.
 

tony_mac

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Interestingly it does say 'passenger railway timetable' then in the same paragraph makes reference to 'the National Rail Timetable', which implies that they are not necessarily the same. (Or, more likely, it's just not very precisely written.)
It does show up on the NRES 'Pocket Timetable'.

But, if you follow what the conditions of carriage say.....
a “through train” is one which may be used by a passenger to make their entire journey without changing trains.
then you wouldn't even need to consult the routeing guide, and the issue of 'what is the timetable' doesn't crop up.
 

N Levers

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Would it also mean that if I lived in Romsey and wanted to commute to Southampton, instead of buying an anytime return for £4.40, I could instead buy a single to Dunbridge for £2.30 and as long as I went out via Eastleigh and back via Redbridge I would be OK doing BOJ at Soton?
I believe (and dont quote me as i am on my phone) that there is a negative easement barring romsey - southampton via Eastleigh.

I would be up for trying the others out but have a lack of free time...
 

hairyhandedfool

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Doesn't the 'no doubling back through stations' override that possibility?
Doubling back only appears in the Routeing Guide, the shortest route and through trains are always valid.

I believe (and dont quote me as i am on my phone) that there is a negative easement barring romsey - southampton via Eastleigh.

I would be up for trying the others out but have a lack of free time...
Easements cannot apply to the shortest route or through trains as they are always valid.
 

sheff1

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But we go back to an earlier argument.

Is this service on Merseyrail, or many of the other circular services advertised as a through service in the Passenger Railway Timetable, which I always take to be the National Rail Timetable. The Working Timetable is not the same as the Passenger Timetable. Looking at Table 106 none of these services are apparently advertised as through / circular services. In which case while they may work as circular services, they are not advertised as such in the passenger timetable. Whilst I acknowledge they run round the loop in Liverpool, actually no mention of this is made in Table 106 (apart from the map), and this is to some extent a special case.
But if you are travelling in accordance with NRCoC Condition 13(a)(i) you don't need to refer to the Routeing Guide and therefore the 'Timetable' issue is irrelevant. All that is needed is that the train(s) you are on meet the definition in NRCoC Condition 13(f), which the Merseyrail Wirral ones do.

Whether RPIs etc 'like' this is neither here nor there as NRCoC Condition 59 is clear that a Train Company's staff or agents have no authority to waive or change the above conditions.
 

Solent&Wessex

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But if you are travelling in accordance with NRCoC Condition 13(a)(i) you don't need to refer to the Routeing Guide and therefore the 'Timetable' issue is irrelevant. All that is needed is that the train(s) you are on meet the definition in NRCoC Condition 13(f), which the Merseyrail Wirral ones do.

Whether RPIs etc 'like' this is neither here nor there as NRCoC Condition 59 is clear that a Train Company's staff or agents have no authority to waive or change the above conditions.
But my point is, if the train is NOT advertised to the public as a through train in the public timetable, then it is not technically a through train. It may be a through train operationally or staff, but it is not a through train as far as the public are concerned. The times advertised and available to the public are the public times, not the working times. If the public times do not show the train as a through service then it is not a through service. I'll admit that NRES shows some of these circular services as through trains, but this is incorrect and is one of the errors with NRES.

 

Indigo2

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As has been said above Condition 13(f) makes no reference to any timetable, public or otherwise. It simply says For the purposes of this Condition, a “through train” is one which may be used by a passenger to make their entire journey without changing trains. I think there can be no doubt that this applies to the Merseyrail services?
 

WelshBluebird

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And NRES, as has been mentioned many times before in various threads, isn't always correct (although it should be as it is allegedly the definitive source of information).
To me, that is a cop out.
If the railways are advertising it as "the definitive source", then surely they HAVE to accept what it says? Even when it works against them?
The website (and engine that powers it) is essentially a public timetable. And if people are being informed by that website (which they are), then the railways surely have to either accept what it says, or change it.
 
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SWT_USER

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Difficult to have much sympathy with TOC's if this is a legitimate way of travelling cheaply when they penalty fare passengers for not having a zero excess or try to make passengers buy new tickets on certain routes despite them already holding valid tickets! What would the implications be if this caught on/ became more widely used, a change to the NRCoC? If so how easy is that to change?
 

island

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Difficult to have much sympathy with TOC's if this is a legitimate way of travelling cheaply when they penalty fare passengers for not having a zero excess or try to make passengers buy new tickets on certain routes despite them already holding valid tickets!
You can't be PFed for having a ticket that is invalid only because of being used on the wrong route. Only issued an excess, which may be a zero excess.
 
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