CIV protections with split tickets

[williamn]

Mod note: moved from thread Utilising CIV with Eurostar

I hope you don't mind me asking another CIV question here rather than starting a new thread. A friend wants to book one from Ludlow but TrainSplit is recommending split tickets with a normal ticket to Reading and a CIV from there. Does she risk the CIV being invalid if any delay occurs before Reading or doesn't it matter?

 

[Watershed]

The forum has plenty of capacity for new threads, so I have moved this into its own thread as it is a slightly different topic

Coming to your question, unfortunately separate tickets involving Eurostar plus other operators don't constitute one journey under the CIV, in the same way that they do for domestic journeys under the NRCoT. So there is no absolute right to take a later Eurostar after being delayed on the way to London (or vice versa) when holding separate tickets to and from London, even if they're CIV.

In practice, discretion is often shown by staff, but the only way to have absolute protection is to hold a single CIV ticket, i.e. an Interrail pass. Accordingly, anything that could reduce the chances of said discretion being shown - such as, being realistic, splitting - is not something I could recommend doing.

 

[Bletchleyite]

For clarity though a ticket to London International CIV and a Eurostar ticket is one ticket for these purposes, an InterRail is not the only way. Otherwise there'd be no point in those.

 

[Watershed]

For clarity though a ticket to London International CIV and a Eurostar ticket is one ticket for these purposes, an InterRail is not the only way. Otherwise there'd be no point in those.

We've discussed this previously; though it'd be lovely for this to be the case, unfortunately it isn't.

Condition 3 of the CIV states:

3.2 Contracts of carriage consist of:
a) the GCC-CIV/PRR;
b) the carrier(s) special conditions of carriage; and
c) the specific data indicated on the ticket (point 4.1.3 below).
In the event of conflict between the GCC-CIV/PRR and the special conditions of carriage, the latter take precedence over the former. In the event of inconsistencies in the special conditions of carriage, the condition more favourable to the passenger is to apply.

...

3.4 One ticket represents one contract of carriage except for the cases covered in points 3.5 and 3.6 below.
3.5 Several tickets in the traditional paper form represent several contracts of carriage. They represent a single contract of carriage only if stated in the special conditions of carriage.
Several e-tickets represent several contracts of carriage. They represent a single contract of carriage only if they are linked electronically and if stated in the special conditions of carriage.
3.6 Provided it is clearly stated in the special conditions of carriage, a single ticket may represent several contracts of carriage.

Whilst the NRCoT permit multiple tickets to constitute one journey and hence one contract, the Eurostar conditions of carriage do not:

3.2 If your journey combines a Eurostar Service and a Thalys Service, the ticket will be a Through Ticket within the meaning of article 12 of the PRR and issues regarding delays, missed connections, cancellations, compensation, and the management of after sales will be handled by Eurostar. For all other journeys that combine a Eurostar Service and a service provided by another carrier(s), including when purchased in a single commercial transaction, those tickets will be separate contracts and issues regarding delays, missed connections, cancellations, compensation, and the management of aftersales will be handled accordingly.

Accordingly, whilst a National Rail ticket to London International CIV is indeed issued subject to the CIV, it constitutes a separate contract to any travel on Eurostar and so there is no actual, legal, protection against missed connections in either direction.

An Interrail/Eurail pass is the only type of through CIV ticket that I'm aware of currently being available for purchase.

The main benefit of buying a London International CIV ticket is that it generally has fewer, if any, time restrictions than an equivalent ticket to London Terminals. It may also increase the likelihood of discretion being exercised by Eurostar or National Rail staff.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is it not the case that those tickets would be "stated in the special conditions of carriage" of the tickets themselves?

 

[Watershed]

Is it not the case that those tickets would be "stated in the special conditions of carriage" of the tickets themselves?

The term "special conditions of carriage" in the CIV refers to the conditions of carriage of the operator(s) in question - see condition 3.2 of the CIV.

And whilst the NRCoT state that multiple tickets can constitute one journey (hence one contract), the Eurostar CoC explicitly state that they cannot (unless they are for travel for a combination of Eurostar and Thalys).

As I say, it's a deeply undesirable situation, but Eurostar are entirely to blame for this. As the Thalys exception shows, it's a purely commercial decision - they're not interested in facilitating travel beyond their little fiefdom.

 

[Adam Williams]

And whilst the NRCoT state that multiple tickets can constitute one journey (hence one contract), the Eurostar CoC explicitly state that they cannot (unless they are for travel for a combination of Eurostar and Thalys).

Is it not the case that the NRCoT and Eurostar CoC are therefore inconsistent with each other?

In the event of inconsistencies in the special conditions of carriage, the condition more favourable to the passenger is to apply.

 

[Watershed]

Is it not the case that the NRCoT and Eurostar CoC are therefore inconsistent with each other?

I think that term is intended to apply to inconsistencies within a given set of "special conditions of carriage", not inconsistencies between different ones.

But even if the latter were to be held to be the correct interpretation of that interpretation clause (which itself a little vague!), I think it would fall into the same camp as exercising PRO rights - possible in theory but not always in practice.

As mentioned previously, Eurostar staff often exercise discretion in practice, but I think you would struggle to get their customer services to pay for overnight accommodation costs, or the cost of a new Eurostar ticket, incurred as a result of disruption in either direction.

In any event, coming back to the topic at hand, it's unclear whether a Ludlow to Reading ticket (for example) is issued subject to the CIV and so I can only say that it seems inadvisable to add to the risk or complexity of the journey, particularly if the OP's friend isn't a seasoned traveller who is well-versed in their rights. The amount at stake is also a lot more than is the case with most domestic journeys; any saving by splitting has to be seen through that lens.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The term "special conditions of carriage" in the CIV refers to the conditions of carriage of the operator(s) in question - see condition 3.2 of the CIV.

And whilst the NRCoT state that multiple tickets can constitute one journey (hence one contract), the Eurostar CoC explicitly state that they cannot (unless they are for travel for a combination of Eurostar and Thalys).

As I say, it's a deeply undesirable situation, but Eurostar are entirely to blame for this. As the Thalys exception shows, it's a purely commercial decision - they're not interested in facilitating travel beyond their little fiefdom.

Which is odd, as Eurostar are typically a lot more accommodative of missed connections on a connectional journey involving them than our domestic TOCs are.

 

[williamn]

Sounds like Mr Seat 61 should update his page then...

European train travel from the UK regions | Buying tickets to connect with Eurostar

Advice on buying UK train tickets to London to connect with Eurostar, or how to use ferry links to reach mainland Europe by-passing London...

www.seat61.com

 

[redreni]

The CIV rules seem clear, leaving the passenger at the mercy Eurostar's discretion.

What about PRO, though? Is Eurostar subject to that? Because if it is, their right to set special conditions of carriage obliterating passengers' PRO rights would be questionable. PRO defines a contract much more broadly and doesn't allow carriers to override this.

The above bit of straw-clutching aside, for the moment I'm comfortable with my position that I'd much rather fly from City Airport, which I can get to in 30 minutes, than spend 55 minutes travelling in the wrong direction to go to the only Eurostar station the UK government can be bothered to provide border guards for, to undergo security checks that take twice as long to then travel to France or Belgium at half the speed, often for a higher fare, especially when my through rail journey is going to be treated as if it wasn't a through rail journey.

 

[Watershed]

What about PRO, though? Is Eurostar subject to that? Because if it is, their right to set special conditions of carriage obliterating passengers' PRO rights would be questionable. PRO defines a contract much more broadly and doesn't allow carriers to override this.

Eurostar is subject to the PRO, but the PRO doesn't define the nature or extent of the contract. That is left down to the conditions of carriage to determine; in fact, the PRO explicitly incorporates the CIV in certain respects. The PRO gives rights based on the contracted origin and destination, e.g.:

Where it is reasonably to be expected that the delay in the arrival at the final destination under the transport contract will be more than 60 minutes...

In 2013, there was a CJEU decision (C-509/11 ÖBB-Personenverkehr) on the question of whether the PRO or CIV takes precedence in the event of a conflict (the PRO gives an unconditional right to delay compensation, whereas the CIV excludes it in the event of circumstances outside the operator's control). The ruling was that the PRO prevails.

However, there isn't a conflict here that I can see. The PRO leaves it down to the contract (CIV) to define what the destination is, and in turn the CIV leave it down to the individual carriers' conditions of carriage to determine whether split tickets can constitute one contract.

The above bit of straw-clutching aside, for the moment I'm comfortable with my position that I'd much rather fly from City Airport, which I can get to in 30 minutes, than spend 55 minutes travelling in the wrong direction to go to the only Eurostar station the UK government can be bothered to provide border guards for, to undergo security checks that take twice as long to then travel to France or Belgium at half the speed, often for a higher fare, especially when my through rail journey is going to be treated as if it wasn't a through rail journey.

Unfortunately I must concur. As much as I prefer travelling by train, both the unfavourable regulatory environment as well as Eurostar's disinterest in anything other than high-yield, point-to-point traffic has the end result that I often fly to places which it should be feasible to take the train to.

 

[Starmill]

Which is odd, as Eurostar are typically a lot more accommodative of missed connections on a connectional journey involving them than our domestic TOCs are.

It's not that odd to be fair, it's more that UK customers are used to dealing with very obstructive customer care at TOCs in Britain.