Clapham Junction subway, retail units

[Skimpot flyer]

Hi
Does anyone have any idea why ALL the shops and fast-food outlets in the passageway beneath platforms 1-17 at Clapham Junction are shuttered, closed. Network Rail have posted notices stating the obvious (that ‘this retail unit is currently closed’) but no explanation is given. Power supply does not seem a problem, as the subway lights and cashpoints are all functional...

 

[hwl]

Hi
Does anyone have any idea why ALL the shops and fast-food outlets in the passageway beneath platforms 1-17 at Clapham Junction are shuttered, closed. Network Rail have posted notices stating the obvious (that ‘this retail unit is currently closed’) but no explanation is given. Power supply does not seem a problem, as the subway lights and cashpoints are all functional...

A way to deal with pedestrian flow issues?

 

[ijmad]

I noticed this because I wanted a West Country Pasty and was denied.

 

[pdeaves]

The station recently became a NR-operated one to enable redevelopment. Is this a prelude to work starting? I don't know, just surmising.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A way to deal with pedestrian flow issues?

People queueing for them certainly get in the way, and with retail in the shopping centre and on the bridge there seems little case for them.

May not be the reason though.

 

[hwl]

People queueing for them certainly get in the way, and with retail in the shopping centre and on the bridge there seems little case for them.

May not be the reason though.

Now that NR is in charge the retail units on the overbridge are getting rearranged (and the odd removal) to improve ped flow (no queuing in front of units, counters /entrances to the sides of units) and the subway works would fit in with this philosophy.

Passeneger numbers at Clapham are growing especially as no one can get on the Northern Line at station with "Clapham" in the name any more.

 

[Tio Terry]

In my many years of working in the rail industry I have been part of at least 7 reviews of passenger flows at Clapham Junction. Most come to the same conclusions, which include the closure of a popular pub! But all include the closure of retail facilities within the underpass and most recommend the same for the footbridge to improve passenger access. Some include an additional over bridge at the London end of the station.

I’m retired now but I know that there is still an ongoing review of just what can be done to improve passenger flow and access to all platforms, now that NR is back in control perhaps this will become a reality?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Passeneger numbers at Clapham are growing especially as no one can get on the Northern Line at station with "Clapham" in the name any more.

It's exit only, or it's too busy? (I note it's one with an original narrow island platform).

 

[ijmad]

It's exit only, or it's too busy? (I note it's one with an original narrow island platform).

Clapham North and Clapham Common both have the original narrow platform design. Clapham South has two platform tunnels. None of them have entry/exit controls but I feel unsafe using them even outside the rush hours to be honest.

 

[infobleep]

In my many years of working in the rail industry I have been part of at least 7 reviews of passenger flows at Clapham Junction. Most come to the same conclusions, which include the closure of a popular pub! But all include the closure of retail facilities within the underpass and most recommend the same for the footbridge to improve passenger access. Some include an additional over bridge at the London end of the station.

I’m retired now but I know that there is still an ongoing review of just what can be done to improve passenger flow and access to all platforms, now that NR is back in control perhaps this will become a reality?

I thought the retail units on the footbridge were added when the old entrance from outside to the footbridge was reopened.

I wonder how much noticed spuld a retail owner be given in these circumstances?

The only thing I used the subway newsagents for was to pick up a copy of the Evening Standard and Evening Standard magazine, when such a thing was published.

At times this meant cutting across flows of people. However that occurs anyway as some platforms have two sets of stairs into the subway.

 

[ijmad]

It is with some relief I can report that after detailed analysis, it appears there are two other Pasty shops at Clapham Junction station, in addition to the Land's End Pasty Corporation in the Subway (which may have closed). There's the Cornish Pasty Company on the footbridge (within the barriers) and West Cornwall Pasty in the St Johns Hill end entrance foyer (outside the barriers).

There are also at least six other coffee shops within the barriers at CJ and two sweet shops. Not to mention several further coffee shops, newsagents and two full metro supermarkets just outside the barriers in the shopping arcade.

No great loss really.

 

[hwl]

It's exit only, or it's too busy? (I note it's one with an original narrow island platform).

Opps I missed the "s" of stations I was referring to all Clapham stations especially North and Common. The trains are already virtually full when they arrive so not much room for those boarding (they empty out massively at St.Ockwell).
The Northern Line Clapham stations usage has been falling for 4-5 years because of the inability to board in the am peak.

 

[hwl]

In my many years of working in the rail industry I have been part of at least 7 reviews of passenger flows at Clapham Junction. Most come to the same conclusions, which include the closure of a popular pub! But all include the closure of retail facilities within the underpass and most recommend the same for the footbridge to improve passenger access. Some include an additional over bridge at the London end of the station.

I’m retired now but I know that there is still an ongoing review of just what can be done to improve passenger flow and access to all platforms, now that NR is back in control perhaps this will become a reality?

This one is becoming reality (quick minor interventions for the time being). I had completely forgotten about it happening (just too much happening and too much info flying around in the later part of 2018 for me), I only remembered when the thought of the Nero's hut near the top of P14/15 stairs being rotated through 90 degrees to the right came back to me.

 

[hwl]

It is with some relief I can report that after detailed analysis, it appears there are two other Pasty shops at Clapham Junction station, in addition to the Land's End Pasty Corporation in the Subway (which may have closed). There's the Cornish Pasty Company on the footbridge (within the barriers) and West Cornwall Pasty in the St Johns Hill end entrance foyer (outside the barriers).

There are also at least six other coffee shops within the barriers at CJ and two sweet shops. Not to mention several further coffee shops, newsagents and two full metro supermarkets just outside the barriers in the shopping arcade.

No great loss really.

Agreed - I think the last time I used any of the retail in the subway was in the mid 2000s. Plenty available elsewhere now unlike 10-15years+ ago.

 

[mcatts]

I noticed this because I wanted a West Country Pasty and was denied.

The one on the bridge is open

 

[D365]

Clapham North and Clapham Common both have the original narrow platform design. Clapham South has two platform tunnels. None of them have entry/exit controls but I feel unsafe using them even outside the rush hours to be honest.

Which one’s the one marked as an interchange to London Overground? Or are they both equally as bad?

 

[ijmad]

Which one’s the one marked as an interchange to London Overground? Or are they both equally as bad?

North. It's not such a bad interchange (maybe 5 mins) but it is getting more and more crowded.

 

[mirodo]

There's currently a Network Rail sign on the shutters of the closed pasty shop advising it will be open again soon, and apologising for the inconvenience.

 

[Busaholic]

It is with some relief I can report that after detailed analysis, it appears there are two other Pasty shops at Clapham Junction station, in addition to the Land's End Pasty Corporation in the Subway (which may have closed). There's the Cornish Pasty Company on the footbridge (within the barriers) and West Cornwall Pasty in the St Johns Hill end entrance foyer (outside the barriers).

There are also at least six other coffee shops within the barriers at CJ and two sweet shops. Not to mention several further coffee shops, newsagents and two full metro supermarkets just outside the barriers in the shopping arcade.

No great loss really.

Living in West Cornwall these past twenty years, and not being averse to a GOOD pasty, all I'll say is that imo your best bet for a Cornish pasty outside the county is a Ginster's. They are at least acceptable, whereas.... By the way, there are some appalling travesties bearing the Cornish pasty moniker down here too, but the locals (at least, those still in possession of both teeth and tastebuds) know to avoid them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Living in West Cornwall these past twenty years, and not being averse to a GOOD pasty, all I'll say is that imo your best bet for a Cornish pasty outside the county is a Ginster's. They are at least acceptable, whereas.... By the way, there are some appalling travesties bearing the Cornish pasty moniker down here too, but the locals (at least, those still in possession of both teeth and tastebuds) know to avoid them.

Trouble is you'll only get one of those either cold or microwaved to sludge. While the originals were not eaten hot, I think they are much nicer that way.

Talking of meat-in-pastry products, it'd be nice to see some more local variety in stations - how's about a Bedfordshire Clanger shop? A particularly practical dish, having two ends, one sweet and one savoury.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bedfordshire_clanger

 

[modernrail]

Clapham North and Clapham Common both have the original narrow platform design. Clapham South has two platform tunnels. None of them have entry/exit controls but I feel unsafe using them even outside the rush hours to be honest.

I use my bike in London. A habit that was very much forced on me when I lived next to Clapham North and then Clapham South. Clapham Common and Clapham Common are just plain dangerous. I have often wondered whether some sort of high quality high capacity tram style articulated limited stop buses between Clapham Junction and Oval/Elephant and Castle might relieve pressure in the area. I can't see any other solution unless somebody finally builds the express line that they started and abandoned under the northern line. It is so bad that people will take any option that improves things a bit. Lots of people get on overloaded buses from the Claphams to Stockwell where the Victoria Line takes some of the pressure off so you can get a on a train. I now live in Brixton and love the luxury of an end of the line station!!

Is it possible to run trains from Clapham Junction via Clapham North into Blackfriars terminating platforms? I presume the required junction does not exist at Loughborough Junction and obviously pathing would be an issue but such a service could really help reduce pressure on that whole part of town by taking lots of people directly into the the City.

 

[Emblematic]

Trouble is you'll only get one of those either cold or microwaved to sludge. While the originals were not eaten hot, I think they are much nicer that way.

Talking of meat-in-pastry products, it'd be nice to see some more local variety in stations - how's about a Bedfordshire Clanger shop? A particularly practical dish, having two ends, one sweet and one savoury.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bedfordshire_clanger

However, as I'm only aware of one bakery in Bedfordshire that regularly bakes clangers, you'll be lucky. The one I know of is in Sandy, BTW - but I'd be glad to know of any others!

 

[modernrail]

Actually, I just looked on Google Sattelite and there is a route. So would the constraints be pathing and platforms at Clapham Junction? It feels to an observer (not an expert) that there might be capacity on the line from Clapham Junction until it meets the South Eastern lines and from Loughbourough Junction to Blackfriars but I would guess running along and crossing over the South Eastern lines for the required short section might be challenging, although they are certainly not the busiest lines in London. My recollection is that the Overground platforms at Clapham Junction had to be built oddly for a good reason. Otherwise it seems like that could squeeze one more platform face in.

I am sure there are lots of reasons why this would not work and so bikes it is!

 

[ijmad]

I use my bike in London. A habit that was very much forced on me when I lived next to Clapham North and then Clapham South. Clapham Common and Clapham Common are just plain dangerous. I have often wondered whether some sort of high quality high capacity tram style articulated limited stop buses between Clapham Junction and Oval/Elephant and Castle might relieve pressure in the area. I can't see any other solution unless somebody finally builds the express line that they started and abandoned under the northern line. It is so bad that people will take any option that improves things a bit. Lots of people get on overloaded buses from the Claphams to Stockwell where the Victoria Line takes some of the pressure off so you can get a on a train. I now live in Brixton and love the luxury of an end of the line station!!

The World Class Capacity upgrade might have pushed the Northern Line to 36tph between Morden and Kennington, but that's not happening for the foreseeable future now. Besides thats only 12.5% capacity boost over what's managed today.

Crossrail 2 is surely the long term solution for capacity problems at these stations though, a good interchange at Tooting Bec or Balham should pull a lot of passengers off the Northern Line. If it ever actually gets built, that's your express Northern Line.

 

[modernrail]

The World Class Capacity upgrade might have pushed the Northern Line to 36tph between Morden and Kennington, but that's not happening for the foreseeable future now. Besides thats only 12.5% capacity boost over what's managed today.

Crossrail 2 is surely the long term solution for capacity problems at these stations though, a good interchange at Tooting Bec or Balham should pull a lot of passengers off the Northern Line. If it ever actually gets built, that's your express Northern Line.

I am due to head down to the 1930's station built for the originally planned express line soon for a work thing. Can't wait!!!

Personally I am not a fan of Crossrail 2 until some of the Northern priorities are dealt with. I see the logic and the need but there comes a point where the lack of investment in the Transpennine routes should be addressed and that point was 10 years ago.

 

[ijmad]

Personally I am not a fan of Crossrail 2 until some of the Northern priorities are dealt with. I see the logic and the need but there comes a point where the lack of investment in the Transpennine routes should be addressed and that point was 10 years ago.

True that. It's a lot of money. Personally I think the government shouldn't be afraid of borrowing to fund infrastructure projects that will deliver solid ROIs, but that's getting a bit political. My point is that we could do all these things if we really wanted. Sigh.

As for the express Northern Line, I personally don't expect to see any substantial new tube-sized railways getting built ever again. Small extensions here and there, but given that per mile, they deliver far less capacity at most of the cost of a Crossrail size tunnel, it just doesn't make sense. I am surprised even the Bakerloo Line extension is being pushed forwards, although even that is only 3-4 stations underground over 4 miles.

 

[Emblematic]

I can't see any other solution unless somebody finally builds the express line that they started and abandoned under the northern line.

Whilst there was the germ of an idea for re-use as an express line after the war, the deep level shelters built under Northern Line stations were solely built as shelters, and the alignments were mainly set to avoid buildings etc., much like the original tunnels. There never was anything more than a vague idea for an express line, a full design was never developed. As soon as some of the shelters hit construction difficulties, these were abandoned and any thoughts of re-use as an express line forgotten.

 

[modernrail]

Whilst there was the germ of an idea for re-use as an express line after the war, the deep level shelters built under Northern Line stations were solely built as shelters, and the alignments were mainly set to avoid buildings etc., much like the original tunnels. There never was anything more than a vague idea for an express line, a full design was never developed. As soon as some of the shelters hit construction difficulties, these were abandoned and any thoughts of re-use as an express line forgotten.

Interesting. An article I read in something or other London based suggested if had been much more developed than this, but it was one of those classic and often inaccurate amazing things that never happened type articles.

 

[modernrail]

True that. It's a lot of money. Personally I think the government shouldn't be afraid of borrowing to fund infrastructure projects that will deliver solid ROIs, but that's getting a bit political. My point is that we could do all these things if we really wanted. Sigh.

As for the express Northern Line, I personally don't expect to see any substantial new tube-sized railways getting built ever again. Small extensions here and there, but given that per mile, they deliver far less capacity at most of the cost of a Crossrail size tunnel, it just doesn't make sense. I am surprised even the Bakerloo Line extension is being pushed forwards, although even that is only 3-4 stations underground over 4 miles.

I suppose one of the problems is that a solid ROI is only as solid as the builder's ability to deliver on time and on budget and so the overruns on Crossrail 1 will make borrowing for Crossrail 2 much less likely, despite historically low interest rates.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Trouble is you'll only get one of those either cold or microwaved to sludge. While the originals were not eaten hot, I think they are much nicer that way.

Talking of meat-in-pastry products, it'd be nice to see some more local variety in stations - how's about a Bedfordshire Clanger shop? A particularly practical dish, having two ends, one sweet and one savoury.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bedfordshire_clanger

If anyone starts a Scotch pie vendor, I can confirm that I will be their biggest customer. You can't seem to get them for love nor money this far south of the Border.