Clarification about adequate penalty fare signage

[gray1404]

I would like to query two things that are causing me confusion.

Penalty Fare Posters/Signs: has there been a recent chance in that they need to display different information to the old ones? And, if an updated poster isn't up with the new wording then it is void?

Does there need to be a PF sign/poster visible at every entrance to a platform at which a train on which a PF may be charged? Or is just a poster anywhere along the platform sufficient?

 

[Starmill]

Why not have a read of the regulations first?
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/366/contents/made

As it says, they applied from 6 April 2018 onwards. Significantly different regulations applied before that date.

 

[furlong]

And worse than that, the mandated wording can be considered misleading in some circumstances (and could be open to legal challenge) and so some operators seem to have breached the regulations by substituting more accurate but non-compliant wording! (A competent Government might have responded by rapidly issuing a revised version of the regulations.)

 

[swt_passenger]

Another regular poster here attempted to summarise the PF notice wording and location issues only a few weeks back:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...y-fares-regulations-2018.175133/#post-3784155

 

[js1000]

I'm surprised TOCs are so slack on following the guidelines in regards to penalty fare signage and there a lack of coherence between them all.

I find the signage at many Northern stations in regards to penalty fares to be inadequate. (I.e. small yellow PF boards fixed to metal fencing and facing 90 degree rather than one in a large noticeboard which faces oncoming passengers similar to what is now present at the steps to platform 1 at Wilmslow)

The last thing they'd want is a legal pronouncement/injunction on penalty fares due to a technicality of non-compliant signage as set down in the regulations so it's not as if it's in their interests to solve any non-compliance issues.

 

[island]

The precedent regarding signage relating to statutory penalty schemes being slightly deficient is R (Herron & anor) vs The Parking Adjudicator & Ors [2011] EWCA Civ 905 which found that minor irregularities cannot invalidate a whole scheme but might affect individual cases.

However, I don’t think there is a specified minimum size for PF warning signs – correct me if I am wrong.

 

[gray1404]

Does there need to be a PF sign/poster visible at every entrance to a platform at which a train on which a PF may be charged? Or is just a poster anywhere along the platform sufficient?

Just getting back to my first post though, does there need to be a PF sign at every entrance to the platform or is a poster anywhere along the said platform enough? So if I can walk onto a platform onto a PF train without going past a PF poster at all (not even one at a silly angle or one that I walk past but is hardly visible) is that grounds for appeal? Even other entrances to that same platform do display posters (ones that don't conform to the new wording).

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Just getting back to my first post though, does there need to be a PF sign at every entrance to the platform or is a poster anywhere along the said platform enough? So if I can walk onto a platform onto a PF train without going past a PF poster at all (not even one at a silly angle or one that I walk past but is hardly visible) is that grounds for appeal? Even other entrances to that same platform do display posters (ones that don't conform to the new wording).

The requirement under Regulation 8(4) is that "notices must also be displayed at sufficient locations around the station so that at least one notice is readily visible to passengers prior to boarding a train at the station, including passengers changing from one train to another train."

So if you do not pass a readily visible notice prior to boarding, any Penalty Fare issued is invalid.

 

[gray1404]

Thank you!

 

[tony_mac]

I don't know if it's relevant here - but unlike Northern, Merseyrail have obviously not taken any notice of the new rules.

I have yet to see a single station which is vaguely compliant - at Liverpool Central, for example, I could only find a single Penalty Fare warning poster - which is adjacent to the exit gateline and not normally visible when entering the station. There are certainly none at either of the station entrances.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I don't know if it's relevant here - but unlike Northern, Merseyrail have obviously not taken any notice of the new rules.

I have yet to see a single station which is vaguely compliant - at Liverpool Central, for example, I could only find a single Penalty Fare warning poster - which is adjacent to the exit gateline and not normally visible when entering the station. There are certainly none at either of the station entrances.

I've often found that the largest stations are the worst for Penalty Fare signage compliance. London Bridge, Birmingham New Street and the high numbered platforms at King's Cross immediately come to mind as stations that have no, or insufficient, signage to fulfil Regulation 8(4).

One wonders whether the TOCs hope perhaps that any recipients of Penalty Fares won't read the Regulations and consider their impact on their Penalty Fare, or whether they don't intend to pursue Penalty Fares against passengers boarding at such stations (i.e. many of them!), or whether they would simply prefer to proceed with prosecution instead!

 

[tony_mac]

I just realised that I should have been looking at platform entrances, and not station entrances.
But, either way, Merseyrail haven't added them since the change of rules.

 

[K.o.R]

I've often found that the largest stations are the worst for Penalty Fare signage compliance.

It's probably a lot harder to get on a train at those stations without having some kind of ticket anyway.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

It's probably a lot harder to get on a train at those stations without having some kind of ticket anyway.

Perhaps, another point is that companies often simply don't consider the number of different entrances to some stations and forget to put signs at all of them!

 

[Plasticscouse7]

Hi any need for notices on the trains and in 1st class if there is 1st class in use