Class 175 future speculation

[RPI]

175’s don’t have SDO.
When coupled in multiple they have the capability for the guard to only release doors on the front unit but that’s it.
If you had a 4 car on a 3 car platform then the guard would have to use a local door only.

But I have thought you could steal a few 3 cars middle cars, turning them into 2 cars and adding the middle car into some of the remaining 3 cars to make 4 cars.

I stand corrected, I thought they had SDO similar to that on SWR's 15x fleet.

 

[Caaardiff]

What GWR routes could cope with 2 cars for capacity, 2x2 cars without platform issues or 3 cars for capacity?
If there's enough routes that could cope with those formations it would free up other fleets for more specific routes.

 

[Parallel]

What GWR routes could cope with 2 cars for capacity, 2x2 cars without platform issues or 3 cars for capacity?

Cardiff - Portsmouth; Cardiff - Penzance; Gloucester - Weymouth could take 2x2 without platform issues. Only Avoncliff, Dilton Marsh, Thornford and Chetnole would be local door only but they are now anyway with non-corridor stock.

Bristol - Salisbury locals and Westbury-Swindon could probably cope with 2 car for capacity, as well as Weymouth out of season at quieter times. I’d imagine the other Bristol-Gloucester/Worcester services would be ideal for three car services, as well as Weymouth and any Cardiff-Taunton shorter workings.

I wonder if these would’ve been better based in the Bristol area, with more 158s cascading west. I guess it wouldn’t make much difference though seeing as they are both effectively regional express trains.

 

[Lurcheroo]

IIRC correctly, there's only 1 compressor on a 3 car 175 - it certainly took an age to build up main res on a dead unit. I don't know if it would be capable of supplying enough air for a 4 car set.

Ahh that would be a problem for sure.
Even if possible, I don’t think they would bother going to the hassle of doing it. Easier to keep them as they are I suppose.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I stand corrected, I thought they had SDO similar to that on SWR's 15x fleet.

Don’t forget SWRs 15x fleet doesn’t have SDO it has selective unit opening the same as the 175s.

 

[RPI]

Don’t forget SWRs 15x fleet doesn’t have SDO it has selective unit opening the same as the 175s.

So, you can select to open unit or train?

 

[TheWalrus]

There is some sort of procurement process going on for replacement stock. There’s a thread about it somewhere I’m sure. If I remember correctly I think that is for entry into service in 2030 though.

Everything here is speculation so far so they could well do.

I see today there was an 802 that went from Cardiff to St Austell then shuttled between there and Plymouth. I’m not family with it, is that usually an 802 ? And is it so busy that it really warrants a 5 car 802 ?

My opinion is that the 175’s would be ideal to replace that and allow the 802 to bolster London services to 10 cars. My opinion is that the 175’s, should GWR get them, is that they should first replace the HST’s that are still going and then displace 802’s on to more appropriate work, such as making sure London - Cardiffs don’t run as 5 coaches.

If theyre running out of Exeter depot how far north would they go? I guess Exeter crew work at least as far as Bristol?

 

[RPI]

If theyre running out of Exeter depot how far north would they go? I guess Exeter crew work at least as far as Bristol?

Some Exeter train crew sign all the way to Cardiff.

 

[TheWalrus]

Some Exeter train crew sign all the way to Cardiff.

Yep just checked the thread on this, looks like Exeter West crew sign Cardiff.

 

[Russel]

Have 175's to GWR been confirmed or is this all still speculation?

 

[Anonymous10]

Have 175's to GWR been confirmed or is this all still speculation?

All still speculation with people mentioning "reliable sources" so time will soon tell.

 

[Snow1964]

All still speculation with people mentioning "reliable sources" so time will soon tell.

It is not customary to make announcements that require funding in budget week (unless part of budget)

The pre local election purdah period starts Tuesday 26th March, and improving local train services, with newer or more carriages is not really possible to announce during purdah without sounding like a political statement

If factor in contracts and paperwork too, seems to give fairly small window for any potential announcement within next 2 months

 

[Rhydgaled]

It is not customary to make announcements that require funding in budget week (unless part of budget)

Would a transfer of 175s to GWR require additional funding if it means the remaining Castle HSTs go off-lease? Or perhaps it will be part of the budget?

On a different note - did the refresh/relivery* work TfW had done on the 175s at Widnes include a full external repaint (and, if so, is the new paint job covered by one of those special warrantee/gaurantee thingys that the 360s had, resulting in them keeping the same base livery through several TOC changes/re-brandings) or just vinyls?

* I hesitate to call it a refurb since I think one of my very few post-COVID trips on one had the new seat covers but still had some of missing padding underneath said covers.

 

[SuperLuke2334]

Would a transfer of 175s to GWR require additional funding if it means the remaining Castle HSTs go off-lease? Or perhaps it will be part of the budget?

On a different note - did the refresh/relivery* work TfW had done on the 175s at Widnes include a full external repaint (and, if so, is the new paint job covered by one of those special warrantee/gaurantee thingys that the 360s had, resulting in them keeping the same base livery through several TOC changes/re-brandings) or just vinyls?

* I hesitate to call it a refurb since I think one of my very few post-COVID trips on one had the new seat covers but still had some of missing padding underneath said covers.

The 175s were definitely painted at Widnes, but I don't know more than that.

 

[The Prisoner]

It is not customary to make announcements that require funding in budget week (unless part of budget)

The pre local election purdah period starts Tuesday 26th March, and improving local train services, with newer or more carriages is not really possible to announce during purdah without sounding like a political statement

If factor in contracts and paperwork too, seems to give fairly small window for any potential announcement within next 2 months

219 seats in a Castle Class, 122 seating in a 175/0 and 190 in a 175/1. Castles for 175/1s is actually a 13% reduction in seats.

Plus don't GWR own the Castles? Or some of them? If Angel have done a deal on the 175s (first few months free whilst they bed in for example), which is a typical commercial sweetener to cover costs whilst training is happening or similar, then the scrap costs of the outgoing Castles might actually spin the deal out as a short term money spinner to keep the DfT happy.

Deal makes sense, and probably isn't that politically sensitive.

Great Western lucky to get these if it is happening. Living in Chester I have had hundreds of journeys on them - comfortable and do the job. Very reliable until TfW ran the units down.

 

[43096]

Plus don't GWR own the Castles? Or some of them? If Angel have done a deal on the 175s (first few months free whilst they bed in for example), which is a typical commercial sweetener to cover costs whilst training is happening or similar, then the scrap costs of the outgoing Castles might actually spin the deal out as a short term money spinner to keep the DfT happy.

Angel only own 6 of the remaining GWR power cars. The rest are either leased from First Rail Holdings or are GWR franchise assets.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

219 seats in a Castle Class, 122 seating in a 175/0 and 190 in a 175/1. Castles for 175/1s is actually a 13% reduction in seats.

Double 175/0 would be an increase (+25 seats) with the same number of (passenger) carriages.

 

[Energy]

Plus don't GWR own the Castles? Or some of them?

First Rail Holdings owns 21 Mk3s, Angel owns 39.
First Rail Holdings owns 12 43s, Angel owns 19 43s and 5 are part of the First Greater Western franchise.
Porterbrook own all the sleeper mk3s.

First Rail Holdings are sets owned by First Group itself and would remain FG property if the franchise/NRC changed.

HSTs aren't in demand aside from the few exported, however they have so many hours between exams. As they've gotten older getting them through exams has gotten more expensive.

 

[43096]

First Rail Holdings owns 21 Mk3s, Angel owns 39.
First Rail Holdings owns 12 43s, Angel owns 19 43s and 5 are part of the First Greater Western franchise.
Porterbrook own all the sleeper mk3s.

First Rail Holdings are sets owned by First Group itself and would remain FG property if the franchise/NRC changed.

HSTs aren't in demand aside from the few exported, however they have so many hours between exams. As they've gotten older getting them through exams has gotten more expensive.

That's not quite accurate. Original power car ownership of the "green" fleet was 19 Angel, 12 FRH, 4 GWR and trailer ownership 39 Angel, 25 FRH, 1 GWR.

The power car position is:
6 Angel
11 First Rail Holdings
1 GWR (active cars only; there's three out of miles in addition)

The trailer position is:
12 Angel
21 First Rail Holdings
1 GWR

Of those, several are long term stopped: currently there appear to be around 12 active power cars (6 Angel, 5 FRH, 1 GWR).

 

[occone]

It would almost make more sense to use 175s where the castles are now, then bring the castles up further north - but I've heard the staff beyond Exeter are no longer certified on the castles any more? I imagine when two 175s are coupled together that having one conductor + catering staff just for two or three carriages wouldn't be seen as efficient when the same staff could run a 5 car train instead.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Sorry but I have seen 175's coupled to 150's before. Not frequently but it has happened.

You definitely haven't, because a Scharfenberg coupler cannot be used with a BSI coupler? (EDIT Ahh, just seen many have already said that!)

Would a transfer of 175s to GWR require additional funding if it means the remaining Castle HSTs go off-lease? Or perhaps it will be part of the budget?

But the whole point is they want additional stock, not replacement stock, to allow Regional IETs to partially return to Londons and to stop the short formations network wide. Yes, I'm well aware there's 27 175s and less than 12 Castles, but unless you'd want to worsen an already dire situation, the 175s would need to be coupled in a number of circumstances.

 

[Lurcheroo]

Very reliable until TfW ran the units down.

Hate to be terribly pedantic but TFW didn’t run them down, in theory they were getting the exact same treatment. What happened was the maintenance facility was taken over by CAF from Alstom. It’s unclear wether they knowingly cut corners on maintenance or if they simply were not fully briefed. Nothing actually to do with TFW though.

Would a transfer of 175s to GWR require additional funding if it means the remaining Castle HSTs go off-lease? Or perhaps it will be part of the budget?

I’d have thought the fuel bill would be cheaper for a 4 car 175 aswell.

 

[Snow1964]

Would a transfer of 175s to GWR require additional funding if it means the remaining Castle HSTs go off-lease? Or perhaps it will be part of the budget?

Ultimately can be played with, depending on timeframe you consider, because can add and subtract various costs, fuel, environment factor, refurbishment, replacement costs, training and rollout costs, etc depending on if you make it a 1-2 year, a 5-8 year, or a 12-15 year project.

1-2 year is the stopgap option before other alternative types become available, 5-8 years is when the current GWR DMU fleet is expected to be replaced, 12-15 years is about the top end of 175 lifespan, and it could be it suits DfT to have 175s in Devon, as too far off wires for BEMUs and pushes the replacement question into 2030s

What makes sense short term to cover crowding and stock shortages isn't the same as if you were considering it in year or two when 158s from Wales, 221s (from 805/807 introduction), 222s (from 810s) are available. At the moment lack of diesel stock for short term use.
.

 

[The exile]

Yes, I'm well aware there's 27 175s and less than 12 Castles, but unless you'd want to worsen an already dire situation, the 175s would need to be coupled in a number of circumstances.

There are far fewer than 12 in daily use (4?) so even if you tie up 16 175 cars (not units) on Castle replacements, thats a lot of extra stuff available.

 

[Caaardiff]

There are far fewer than 12 in daily use (4?) so even if you tie up 16 175 cars (not units) on Castle replacements, thats a lot of extra stuff available.

But GWR are ultimately running short after retiring some already and replacing with IETs which are required elsewhere. So in theory they are replacing 12 daily in use. The nearest like for like would be 10x 3 cars paired with 10x 2 cars, and 4x 2 cars paired which would give 12 sets in total - 10x 5 car and 2x 4 car, and allowing for 1x 3 car and 2x 2 cars to be on maintenance.

 

[REVUpminster]

I can only see 175s replacing 158s but even that has problems. It frees up 2 150s on the Okehampton for use on Paignton-Exmouth, but would still need the turbos, or on future Cornwall services. The 175 would have to be cleared for Barnstaple-Axminster service which could be increased in the future. It does not address the capacity problems at Barnstaple and if extended to 5 cars can they still be reversed in Exmouth junction siding.

 

[irish_rail]

Regarding capacity, if a 175 replaces a Castle , in most cases a 3 car 175 will cope fine. This is provided we keep the current position where most London trains through Cornwall remain formed of 9 coaches, and the splitting joining nonsense at Plymouth doesn't return. In my experience the Castles are rarely full in Cornwall, so a 175 3 car set will suffice on most trains with the 9 car London IET taking up the slack.

 

[Caaardiff]

Regarding capacity, if a 175 replaces a Castle , in most cases a 3 car 175 will cope fine. This is provided we keep the current position where most London trains through Cornwall remain formed of 9 coaches, and the splitting joining nonsense at Plymouth doesn't return. In my experience the Castles are rarely full in Cornwall, so a 175 3 car set will suffice on most trains with the 9 car London IET taking up the slack.

What about in the Bristol area and also Cardiff - Bristol?

 

[Bletchleyite]

What about in the Bristol area and also Cardiff - Bristol?

In my experience Cardiff-Bristol is heading towards needing more than even a 5-car IET, particularly in summer. Though 5.175 is considerably more capacious than 5.80x, other than for luggage which is poor as the overheads are tiny.

 

[REVUpminster]

Just thought of something else down here. Are the 175s seaworthy. Voyagers are not and 800s have their problems.