Class 175 to GWR

[contrex]

I think the railway’s controlling mind is a grade or two below that one?

Maybe not on God's Wonderful Railway?

 

[Xavi]

Interesting, I must say, it’s seriously disappointing if it’s only 20 and not the full 27.

It has been previously mentioned that there will be 20 daily diagrams (~75% availability from a full fleet). If it is less than the full 27 coming to GWR, it can't be down to condition since it's been widely reported they have to be handed back by TfW in ready for use condition, hence the works undertaken at Landore and C4s at Central Rivers.

If 20 units come to GWR and there are 15 daily diagrams that would probably be adequate for Exeter - Okehampton/ Barnstaple / Penzance and tie in with other publications reporting that they won't be diagrammed north of Exeter, the Penzance - Cardiff being split at Exeter.

 

[The exile]

It w

It has been previously mentioned that there will be 20 daily diagrams (~75% availability from a full fleet).

That fact (assuming it is one) potentially gives a clue to the origin of the confusion.

 

[Towers]

It’ll just be DfT cash saving, surely? Cheaper to lease 20 than 27, replace those pricey Castles and get by with whatever is left over between the DMU fleets. That’s still a significant improvement over the current situation.

 

[Lurcheroo]

It’ll just be DfT cash saving, surely? Cheaper to lease 20 than 27, replace those pricey Castles and get by with whatever is left over between the DMU fleets. That’s still a significant improvement over the current situation.

would seem that way if they only have 20 out of the 27.
Would have thought the lease company would have been keen to do a deal and get all 27 over to GWR though.

 

[Towers]

would seem that way if they only have 20 out of the 27.
Would have thought the lease company would have been keen to do a deal and get all 27 over to GWR though.

I suppose one possibility might be that, given the older DMU fleets are struggling with spares availability significantly, the remaining seven sets might end up being partly or fully stripped for bits? They’re a fairly small and unique fleet that’s now north of 20 years old after all, so it isn’t unreasonable to think that spares might be a consideration?

 

[Lurcheroo]

I suppose one possibility might be that, given the older DMU fleets are struggling with spares availability significantly, the remaining seven sets might end up being partly or fully stripped for bits? They’re a fairly small and unique fleet that’s now north of 20 years old after all, so it isn’t unreasonable to think that spares might be a consideration?

It’s certainly not outside the realm of possibility that’s for sure!

 

[Snow1964]

I suppose one possibility might be that, given the older DMU fleets are struggling with spares availability significantly, the remaining seven sets might end up being partly or fully stripped for bits? They’re a fairly small and unique fleet that’s now north of 20 years old after all, so it isn’t unreasonable to think that spares might be a consideration?

I would guess that is likely, they are nearer 23-24 years old, and presumably they need to be usable from day 1 of a new lease.

Logically can't really lease out something that is unusable, has missing parts, or needs a partial rebuild before it can be used.

 

[43096]

I suppose one possibility might be that, given the older DMU fleets are struggling with spares availability significantly, the remaining seven sets might end up being partly or fully stripped for bits? They’re a fairly small and unique fleet that’s now north of 20 years old after all, so it isn’t unreasonable to think that spares might be a consideration?

I would guess that is likely, they are nearer 23-24 years old, and presumably they need to be usable from day 1 of a new lease.

Logically can't really lease out something that is unusable, has missing parts, or needs a partial rebuild before it can be used.

If that is the case, why is the owner (Angel) insisting on TfW getting all the sets into an acceptable state before it will accept them back? TfW is still paying for those units that have not been accepted back.

 

[jamieh27]

It has been previously mentioned that there will be 20 daily diagrams (~75% availability from a full fleet). If it is less than the full 27 coming to GWR, it can't be down to condition since it's been widely reported they have to be handed back by TfW in ready for use condition, hence the works undertaken at Landore and C4s at Central Rivers.

If 20 units come to GWR and there are 15 daily diagrams that would probably be adequate for Exeter - Okehampton/ Barnstaple / Penzance and tie in with other publications reporting that they won't be diagrammed north of Exeter, the Penzance - Cardiff being split at Exeter.

Looks like they will aternate at Exeter St. Davids, with the other units being around Devon and Cornwall including the occasional Falmouth line.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

The plan is still for the entire fleet to go to GWR.
I suspect the 20 v 27 comments is semantics about number of daily traffic units versus actual number of physical units. From memory initial usage was around 20 from 27 - part of the plan is about reducing what has become quite heroic unit availability needs.

Plans are still Cornwall first, with introduction round Exeter being phase 2.

Yes, still not every last bit of paperwork sorted, but as shown by example elsewhere such as the 175 fleet engineer the DfT have asked GWR to proceed ‘at risk’ with the expectation of them joining the fleet.

 

[Lurcheroo]

The plan is still for the entire fleet to go to GWR.
I suspect the 20 v 27 comments is semantics about number of daily traffic units versus actual number of physical units. From memory initial usage was around 20 from 27 - part of the plan is about reducing what has become quite heroic unit availability needs.

Plans are still Cornwall first, with introduction round Exeter being phase 2.

Yes, still not every last bit of paperwork sorted, but as shown by example elsewhere such as the 175 fleet engineer the DfT have asked GWR to proceed ‘at risk’ with the expectation of them joining the fleet.

Good to hear ! Thanks

 

[Snow1964]

If that is the case, why is the owner (Angel) insisting on TfW getting all the sets into an acceptable state before it will accept them back? TfW is still paying for those units that have not been accepted back.

I see a problem here, if TfW haven't yet returned some, and the date of return is unclear to Angel, then Angel can't re-lease the returning sets, until they are available

Of course they could give GWR a conditional offer on all of them, but possibly can't currently guarantee a date of availability for few of the fleet.

Only having a few probably won't matter initially, whilst training is proceeding, but a time will come when want to ramp up to about three quarters in daily service. Will be a problem if TfW still have a few.

Of course if GWR are only comfortable with about 75-80% in use, one has to question why they try and get a higher percentage use from older 158, 165, 166 fleet (and in practice suffer regular short forms because can't keep that level in service everyday).

 

[The exile]

What's the betting on an announcement about the arrival of extra trains being made at the opening of Ashley Down...

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Of course if GWR are only comfortable with about 75-80% in use, one has to question why they try and get a higher percentage use from older 158, 165, 166 fleet (and in practice suffer regular short forms because can't keep that level in service everyday).

And of course part of the 175 plan at GWR is to reduce the requirement for the other fleets as they get older.

 

[Anonymous10]

This post from the previous thread in speculative discussion, among other posts from those in the industry:


If it's now only going to be 20, that probably means either ASLEF were lied to, or something else has come up that has changed circumstances (such as some of the units not being fit enough to go).

Or some units joining at a later date? Maybe fire damaged ones?

 

[brad465]

The latest RAIL edition includes the following line at the end of an article about Scotrail's HST replacement announcement:

"Great Western Railway expects to eliminate its last 'Castle' Class HSTs early in the New Year, when it takes delivery of Class 175 DMUs."

So their editors have either been told 175s are coming, or they will have to issue a retraction further down the line if not (no pun intended).

 

[Snow1964]

Angel trains accounts (which have been filed at companies House 9th September include following within business activity on page 2

TfW extended the lease on all 70 class 175s until May 2024

An agreement was reached with GWR to terminate lease of HSTs ahead of lease expiry June 2025 and Angel have been fully compensated.

I have no idea if these are linked with some sort of HST compensation being in form of GWR taking on 175s

ANGEL TRAINS LIMITED filing history - Find and update company information - GOV.UK

ANGEL TRAINS LIMITED - Free company information from Companies House including registered office address, filing history, accounts, annual return, officers, charges, business activity

find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk

The forward looking note on page 6 of accounts suggests Angel are supporting all diesel trains gone by 2040 and expect dramatic reduction in diesel only fleet by 2030. Suggests they expect big cull of their 15x and 16x fleet within 6 years.

 

[43096]

An agreement was reached with GWR to terminate lease of HSTs ahead of lease expiry June 2025 and Angel have been fully compensated.

Which confirms that GWR paid off the remaining lease term.

 

[Clarence Yard]

No, the HST lease compensation has absolutely nothing to do with the cl.175 units. They are two completely separate deals.

 

[Express380]

Latest 175 information going around from Railways Illustrated apologies if it's not new news

THE ALSTOM-BUILT Class 175 Coradia diesel multiple unit fleet is set to be employed on Great Western Railway services, although a transfer date from their current storage locations has yet to be confirmed.

Internal GWR documents seen by Railways Illustrated state that all 27 units – consisting of 11 two-coach Class 175/0s (175001-011) and 16 three-coach Class 175/1s (175101116) – will be moving to the operator. Built between 1999 and 2001 and refurbished by their manufacturer from 2019 to 2021, the Angel Trainsowned fleet had most recently been leased by Transport for Wales Rail but were withdrawn last year by TFW following the introduction of new Caf-built Class 197 DMUS. The trains are all currently in store, located at either Landore or Potter Logistics facility at Ely Papworth.
It is understood that GWR plan to use the Class 175s to mainly operate services on the Exeter St Davids to Penzance, Exeter St Davids to Barnstaple, and Exeter St Davids to Okehampton routes, while diversionary routes for the DMUS would be on the lines from Taunton to Castle

Cary and from Castle Cary to Exeter St Davids. Occasionally, they may also be operated on the Falmouth branch. Gauge clearance for the trains is required for the Okehampton, Barnstaple and Falmouth branches, as well as at Long Rock depot and from Exeter St Davids to Castle Cary, via Yeovil Junction. Various sidings must also be considered for clearance, including Exmouth Junction turnback siding, Newton Abbot Hackney Yard and Heathfield Branch turnback, the station yard at Truro, Goodrington Sidings, Exeter New Yard and Riverside Yard, along with Chapel sidings at Par. It is understood that approval for the DMUS to join the GWR fleet has been granted by the Department for Transport, with outstanding paperwork currently holding up the deal from being completed.

Once they have been taken on by GWR, the Class 175s will be based at Laira Depot and their transfer will enable the withdrawal of the final few serviceable Castle Class short-formed High Speed Train sets, as well as a cascade of other DMUS and Intercity Express Trains to other routes.

From Railways Illustrated Sept ‘24

 

[Wolfie]

Latest 175 information going around from Railways Illustrated apologies if it's not new news

At last! Seems like a sensible move.

 

[43096]

At last! Seems like a sensible move.

There's nothing new in that piece that we didn’t already know. And still no confirmation that the contract has been signed. All the magazines seem to be jumping the gun.

 

[507020]

As far as the conflicting information goes, this article claims that GWR will receive the full fleet and it will be cleared via Axminster, but with no mention of Cardiff or the service pattern.

Obviously no services between Exeter and Taunton are going to be diverted via Castle Cary with a reversal, so route clearance from Exeter to Castle Cary, Axminster and Yeovil must serve a different purpose, like one that exists in a timetable.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Exeter to Castle Cary, Axminster and Yeovil must serve a different purpose, like one that exists in a timetable

There is an ECS move formed off the afternoon Barnstaple to Axminster over this route for route knowledge retention.

175s are not planned to be going to Bristol or Cardiff for GWR but largely staying captive to Devon and Cornwall.

 

[Towers]

There is an ECS move formed off the afternoon Barnstaple to Axminster over this route for route knowledge retention.

175s are not planned to be going to Bristol or Cardiff for GWR but largely staying captive to Devon and Cornwall.

Any news on whether the intended implementation will allow for a cascade of 158s onto Portsmouth workings?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Any news on whether the intended implementation will allow for a cascade of 158s onto Portsmouth workings?

Yes that is the eventual plan that the 158s will be dedicated for that route, although there aren’t quite enough as has been discussed before so a limited number of turbo workings will need to remain too.

 

[Towers]

Yes that is the eventual plan that the 158s will be dedicated for that route, although there aren’t quite enough as has been discussed before so a limited number of turbo workings will need to remain too.

That’s good news, IMHO at least!

 

[Bikeman78]

There is an ECS move formed off the afternoon Barnstaple to Axminster over this route for route knowledge retention.

175s are not planned to be going to Bristol or Cardiff for GWR but largely staying captive to Devon and Cornwall.

If 150s are to remain on most of the branches, that seems an excessive number of units. Splitting Cardiff to Penzance is a backward step. What will run from Cardiff to Taunton?

 

[Snow1964]

Any news on whether the intended implementation will allow for a cascade of 158s onto Portsmouth workings?

Yes that is the eventual plan that the 158s will be dedicated for that route, although there aren’t quite enough as has been discussed before so a limited number of turbo workings will need to remain too.

The problem is 3-4 trains are Castle HSTs being replaced, and there are regularly 5-7 5car IETs covering local trains. Allow for enhanced Newquay line services, and some extension to Bristol metro services and then there is only a token number of vehicles from the 70 class 175s that can release 158s

The 175s are a not much more than a short term bodge (better than nothing, but not a complete fix), there simply isn't enough trains being released to get every Portsmouth-Cardiff train to 4 or 5 car 158 for next 6 - 8 years. (And GWR 158 replacement is currently expected to be around 6 -8 years away)