Class 175s: Post Wales & Borders Franchise future?

[transmanche]

Mod Note: Posts #1 - #4 originally in this thread.

When they come off-lease at ATW, they would make excellent trains for some of the Northern Connect routes - and could still be maintained at Chester. This would allow Northern to shuffle units around and replace some of their older stock.

 

[pemma]

When they come off-lease at ATW, they would make excellent trains for some of the Northern Connect routes - and could still be maintained at Chester. This would allow Northern to shuffle units around and replace some of their older stock.

I think the one issue with that is the majority of Connect services are expected to get brand new 195s. While the 175s look good in comparison to much of what's in Northern's fleet replacing 195s with 175s and using 195s to replace Sprinters might not go down well with those travelling on routes which lose almost new trains in favour of trains over 20 years old which Wales no longer wants. If on the other hand they start replacing 156s and 158s they could be seen as a big improvement.

 

[transmanche]

I think the one issue with that is the majority of Connect services are expected to get brand new 195s. While the 175s look good in comparison to much of what's in Northern's fleet replacing 195s with 175s and using 195s to replace Sprinters might not go down well with those travelling on routes which lose almost new trains in favour of trains over 20 years old which Wales no longer wants. If on the other hand they start replacing 156s and 158s they could be seen as a big improvement.

The Carlisle-Middlesbrough Connect service is going to use 158s. I was thinking that using 175s on (say) the Chester-Leeds means they could still be based at Alstom's depot in Chester. Northern could then reshuffle which routes use 195s and cascade the 158s.

Just an idle thought...

 

[pemma]

The Carlisle-Middlesbrough Connect service is going to use 158s. I was thinking that using 175s on (say) the Chester-Leeds means they could still be based at Alstom's depot in Chester. Northern could then reshuffle which routes use 195s and cascade the 158s.

Just an idle thought...

Some other Connect routes are set to get 195s but not on every service, meaning they'll be complimented with 158s.

 

[47802]

Adding yet another train type to Northern, getting hold of WM 170's would likely be a better idea more use of an existing train type and probably more suited door layout to many of Northern's mixed routes. There are of course the 185's which will should be available sooner which is also adding another train type and are likely to be more expensive although they are of course used on some Northern services at present.

As per usual I do find these threads somewhat pointless the release of the 175's is quite a few years away and there are a number franchises that are due for renewal which are likely to require some Diesels.

 

[Chester1]

I think the one issue with that is the majority of Connect services are expected to get brand new 195s. While the 175s look good in comparison to much of what's in Northern's fleet replacing 195s with 175s and using 195s to replace Sprinters might not go down well with those travelling on routes which lose almost new trains in favour of trains over 20 years old which Wales no longer wants. If on the other hand they start replacing 156s and 158s they could be seen as a big improvement.

Northern needs 18 x 2 coach units equivalent to 170s by end of 2022 and W&B have taken all the 2 car 170s going off lease in the near future. The 11 x 2 coach 175s would be a good fit but the owner (Angel Trains) would want to lease the fleet as a whole and Northern won't want to take 11 x 2 coach + 16 x 3 coach sets when they are only obliged to obtain 18 x 2. There could be potentially a deal to scrap some of the Angel Train sprinters that are in the worst condition early in return for leasing all of the 175s until the end of the franchise. If they are in operation for Northern before 2025 the chances of them being leased by the next opperator are high because bidders will priorise getting rid of the sprinters over younger stock. I agree they should not be allowed to opperate Northern Connect routes instead of 195s.

 

[Chester1]

Adding yet another train type to Northern, getting hold of WM 170's would likely be a better idea more use of an existing train type and probably more suited door layout to many of Northern's mixed routes. There are of course the 185's which will should be available sooner which is also adding another train type and are likely to be more expensive although they are of course used on some Northern services at present.

As per usual I do find these threads somewhat pointless the release of the 175's is quite a few years away and there are a number franchises that are due for renewal which are likely to require some Diesels.

Northern use borrow 2 x 185s on a per day lease and I very much doubt they would pick them over 175s due to the opperating costs. I think as soon as electrification to Preston completes or the 195s arrive Northern will hand back the remain 185s to TPE and not lease any of the 22 going off lease in the early 2020s.

 

[XCTurbostar]

Could they go to CrossCountry?

 

[mallard]

Could they go to CrossCountry?

Don't they have the same/near-same bodyshells as the class 180s? The ones that (apparently) have guaging issues preventing them going to Birmingham New Street? If so then I doubt it... (Although there is some photographic evidence of them visiting New Street around, so maybe it's not all that bad, or the guaging issues are only at one end of the station?)

Even if they could fit through Birmingham, what use would they be? They're too slow for the main routes and while extra capacity on the 170-operated routes would be nice, there aren't enough of them to completely replace the 170s, nor are they compatible with them.

 

[D2007wsm]

How about them going to GWR to be used on the Cardiff Portsmouths? Operating in a 2 car + 3 car, this will offer a better experience for the customers than Turbos. The Turbos could then be used to get rid of some of the 150s in Devon.

 

[Qwerty133]

Don't they have the same/near-same bodyshells as the class 180s? The ones that (apparently) have guaging issues preventing them going to Birmingham New Street? If so then I doubt it... (Although there is some photographic evidence of them visiting New Street around, so maybe it's not all that bad, or the guaging issues are only at one end of the station?)

Even if they could fit through Birmingham, what use would they be? They're too slow for the main routes and while extra capacity on the 170-operated routes would be nice, there aren't enough of them to completely replace the 170s, nor are they compatible with them.

Pretty sure theres a 175 diagram that goes through New Street at the moment so they can certainly access New Street from at least some directions.

 

[gazthomas]

Just love the subject of this thread - are they staying over !

 

[mde]

A trip to Rotherham perhaps?

I can't see why Northern would be especially interested in the 175s - they aren't the most reliable, nor, are they in the best condition. There's DMUs coming off lease which would have some commonality (e.g. 170s) so would likely be a better use of funds/resources.

 

[pemma]

Well it seems the Wales & Borders franchise isn't taking on any of the West Midlands 170s, only Anglia ones: http://www.keolisamey.cymru/media/1046/ams-wb-overview-presentation.pdf

That means the West Midlands 170s, 22 of the TPE 185s plus the 175s are available to other franchises such as EMT, the extra vehicles for Northern etc.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

TOCs can't take on extra stock just because it becomes available. It will be 2022/23 anyway, too far away for most franchises.
Northern and TPE have had their go and that's it for 7 years or so, unless DfT agrees to a new business case which I think we can say is unlikely.
By 2022 they will be even more careworn and I should think there's a strong possibility nobody will want them.
The Chester depot will be reconfigured towards maintaining CAF Civitys for W&B, and it may not even be Alstom's by then.

 

[pemma]

Northern and TPE have had their go and that's it for 7 years or so, unless DfT agrees to a new business case which I think we can say is unlikely.

Northern are due to take on additional DMUs in 2022, as indicated in the franchise agreement. They are to be 170s or trains equivalent in quality and performance to 170s. (Those aren't the 16 x 170s they have already leased from Scotrail.) Plus they might not get all the cascaded trains they included in their December 2019 train plan.

The TPE franchise agreement includes option to order additional new electric trains and to return some of the 29 x 185s that they are retaining post-2020. Given electrification delays I wouldn't be surprised if they are allowed to take on additional trains which can run off the wires instead.

 

[sw1ller]

A trip to Rotherham perhaps?

I can't see why Northern would be especially interested in the 175s - they aren't the most reliable, nor, are they in the best condition. There's DMUs coming off lease which would have some commonality (e.g. 170s) so would likely be a better use of funds/resources.

I keep reading that 175s are unreliable.... I’ve not had to fail any in over 2 years. Ok, there’s a bit of an issue with fires but it’s not unheard of elsewhere. I think they’re decent units.

 

[pemma]

I keep reading that 175s are unreliable.... I’ve not had to fail any in over 2 years. Ok, there’s a bit of an issue with fires but it’s not unheard of elsewhere. I think they’re decent units.

They were unreliable when first introduced by First North Western but have become more reliable over time.

 

[Parallel]

I would love 175s to work on Cardiff - Portsmouth services in the future. Much more preferable to Turbos, and slightly more suitable to 158s due to their leg room. I don’t think it will happen but 175s at GWR could replace 158s for Wales & Borders or elsewhere.

I think the 175s are generally well suited on the services they currently work at the moment, though.

 

[Ianno87]

Pretty sure theres a 175 diagram that goes through New Street at the moment so they can certainly access New Street from at least some directions.

There at least used to be one diagrammed from Shrewsbury through to Birmingham International a few years back.

 

[PHILIPE]

There at least used to be one diagrammed from Shrewsbury through to Birmingham International a few years back.

There is now Mondays to Fridays and one on a Sunday

 

[transmanche]

I agree they should not be allowed to opperate Northern Connect routes instead of 195s.

But would you allow them to operate Northern Connect routes instead of 158s?

 

[Bletchleyite]

But would you allow them to operate Northern Connect routes instead of 158s?

Don't see why not, they basically offer the same things (if less reliable), plus a bit more legroom due to going for 8 rather than 9 bodyside windows and the seating spaced accordingly.

 

[krus_aragon]

A trip to Rotherham perhaps?

I can't see why Northern would be especially interested in the 175s - they aren't the most reliable, nor, are they in the best condition.

They're likely to get an internal refresh before they go: at the least they will have power points fitted to meet commitments to fit 95% of trains with at-seat power points by 2020.

As for reliability, they're not the same machines that First North Western had so much trouble with. Arriva were diagramming for 90% fleet utilization as far back as 2012 (that's three out of 27 on maintenance or spare). They operate over half of the services along the North Wales Coast Line (including Virgin), and you don't read daily reports of the line going into meltdown, do you?

 

[mushroomchow]

I'd quite like them round these parts for the EMT regional services. If they ended up alongside the 158s as the bulk of the fleet, the 156s / 153s could be retired or used to boost capacity on more rural services, or (assuming it survives the franchise retender) the Liverpool - Norwich run could be given over to the 175s to take advantage of their higher top speed and 158s given over to the rest of the system.

A regional fleet of 158s and 175s would be great for capacity and timetable improvements, both of which are due an upgrade from 2019. I've long since given up hope of us getting Turbostars around here for anything other than the sardine cans to New Street, so getting 175s would be a silver lining.

 

[Domh245]

Do the 175s fall under sprinter differential speeds, or are they just limited to DMU?

 

[Chester1]

I'd quite like them round these parts for the EMT regional services. If they ended up alongside the 158s as the bulk of the fleet, the 156s / 153s could be retired or used to boost capacity on more rural services, or (assuming it survives the franchise retender) the Liverpool - Norwich run could be given over to the 175s to take advantage of their higher top speed and 158s given over to the rest of the system.

A regional fleet of 158s and 175s would be great for capacity and timetable improvements, both of which are due an upgrade from 2019. I've long since given up hope of us getting Turbostars around here for anything other than the sardine cans to New Street, so getting 175s would be a silver lining.

EMT could have the W&B 158s (24 units) instead to have a regional fleet of all 158s. Either fleet would not be quite enough unless Liverpool to Norwich is split.

 

[47802]

I'd quite like them round these parts for the EMT regional services. If they ended up alongside the 158s as the bulk of the fleet, the 156s / 153s could be retired or used to boost capacity on more rural services, or (assuming it survives the franchise retender) the Liverpool - Norwich run could be given over to the 175s to take advantage of their higher top speed and 158s given over to the rest of the system.

A regional fleet of 158s and 175s would be great for capacity and timetable improvements, both of which are due an upgrade from 2019. I've long since given up hope of us getting Turbostars around here for anything other than the sardine cans to New Street, so getting 175s would be a silver lining.

The next EMT franchise should be looking to replace all 1st generation Sprinters including 158's as should all future franchises that still have them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The next EMT franchise should be looking to replace all 1st generation Sprinters as should all future franchises that have now.

I don't see a need to be scrapping 158s yet, they are much newer than the others (mid 1990s rather than mid 1980s) and still look modern. Other 15x I can see the point.

 

[kje7812]

Do the 175s fall under sprinter differential speeds, or are they just limited to DMU?

This thread suggests they don't:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/eps-mu-and-normal-speed-limits.57200/