Class 185 cascade suggestions

[Philip]

Now that the first couple of the new TPE trains have entered service, with more to come soon, I thought a thread for the cascading of 185s whenever and wherever would be good.

Do we know yet when the first 185s will be going off lease, which set numbers and potentially where they will be going?

 

[LOL The Irony]

Now that the first couple of the new TPE trains have entered service, with more to come soon, I thought a thread for the cascading of 185s whenever and wherever would be good.

Do we know yet when the first 185s will be going off lease, which set numbers and potentially where they will be going?

Straight back to TPE ala Northern with the 323's.

 

[hwl]

Now that the first couple of the new TPE trains have entered service, with more to come soon, I thought a thread for the cascading of 185s whenever and wherever would be good.

Do we know yet when the first 185s will be going off lease, which set numbers and potentially where they will be going?

With TPE taking over the EMR Liverpool - Nottingham they will need to retain more 185s, hence very few now surplus...

 

[sprinterguy]

The lease end dates for the 22 class 185s were originally planned to be between 10 November 2019 and 31 March 2020, however as noted above (and due to delays introducing new stock to service) this is unlikely to be the case now.

 

[yrreb]

The contract for all 185s has been extended until May 2020, by which point I assume a decision will have been made on Liverpool to Nottingham - At least six will be needed for that (or twelve assuming they all stay doubled up throughout)

 

[PomWombat]

How many of the Hull services will end up doubled up?

 

[LittleAH]

How many of the Hull services will end up doubled up?

All Hull/Cleethorpes services should be 6 car and I believe that one Middlesbrough will still be a 6 car 185 when all their new stock is in place (depending on Redcar).

 

[Doomotron]

So does the new service mean that almost no 185s will be stored/transferred?

 

[Jonny]

With TPE taking over the EMR Liverpool - Nottingham they will need to retain more 185s, hence very few now surplus...

Do you have a source for that?

 

[Philip]

Even if 12 are used to work Liverpool-Nottingham 6-car formations; a couple for a North TPE diagram and a couple spare, that still leaves about 5-6 units with no assignment.

 

[ainsworth74]

that still leaves about 5-6 units with no assignment

It does but if I'm the ROSCO for the 185s it seems like it would be in my interest to make TPE a deal they can't refuse for the those residual 185s rather than having them lying around costing money or trying to shoehorn them into another operators fleet.

 

[MML]

That number seems to be changing fairly frequently so I wouldn’t treat anything as fact just yet!

Quickly throwing some numbers out, if you made all workings that are to remain as Cl185 up to 6 cars, you’d need:
10 units for HUL - MAN
+ 14 units for CLE - MIA
+ 2 units for MBR - MIA (due to Redcar extension)
+ 2 units for MAN - HUD stopper*
+ 2 units for LDS - HUD stopper*
+ 4 units as hot spares/exam
= 34 Units
*assumed running as single sets.

With platform 0 at Leeds and combining of the stoppers in the long term, this may lead to running as double sets which could total 8 units...
+ 4 units to strengthen stoppers
= 38 units

Then there’s the potential of the Liverpool - Nottingham services...
+ 14 units for LIV - NOT
= 52 units (and that takes you 1 over!)

So there’s clearly a case for keeping them all!

Not official but seems to be a reliable forecast.

 

[modernrail]

I would personally consider transferring York - Blackpool to TPE and use the additional units there. That would allow 195's to be used on a more suitable stopping route.

 

[LOL The Irony]

8 tob10 class 185s are going to GWR Indirectly replacing 143s

Don't know where that's coming from unless it's a tempoary internal FG transfer until the 769's come in.

 

[jonesy3001]

Wouldn't it be better if northern take on the remaining 185s for the yorkshire routes, since that's what they were built for and they have depots for them in manchester and around yorkshire.

 

[Neptune]

York - Blackpool would be ideal for them with both hilly sections and fast flat sections but I can’t see Northern taking any on or the route transferring to TPE.

 

[tpjm]

8 tob10 class 185s are going to GWR Indirectly replacing 143s

Sounds like adventurous (or wishful) fiction to me!

 

[ic31420]

I would personally consider transferring York - Blackpool to TPE and use the additional units there. That would allow 195's to be used on a more suitable stopping route.

Don't understand why this isn't in the TPE portfolio already

 

[Clarence Yard]

It is wibble. The future of the 22 spare 185 units depends on a number of DfT decisions.

It is no secret that Siemens and the ROSCO would prefer them to stay in the North. Rail North would prefer that too.

 

[superkev]

It is wibble. The future of the 22 spare 185 units depends on a number of DfT decisions.

It is no secret that Siemens and the ROSCO would prefer them to stay in the North. Rail North would prefer that too.

I always thought the Pennine or Scottish hills where a good match for these powerful units.
K

 

[gimmea50anyday]

The last time this was discussed with me, I was told all 185s are now staying with TPE.

Now wether this is a temporary thing due to late Mk5 introduction, or to do with taking over EMT LIV-NOT I cannot say. I just don't know. The fact Nottingham, Leicester and Derby appear in the list of destinations on the on board PIS cannot be ignored, especially as the rumour won't go away.

 

[tpjm]

The last time this was discussed with me, I was told all 185s are now staying with TPE.

Now wether this is a temporary thing due to late Mk5 introduction, or to do with taking over EMT LIV-NOT I cannot say. I just don't know. The fact Nottingham, Leicester and Derby appear in the list of destinations on the on board PIS cannot be ignored, especially as the rumour won't go away.

I'm not fully in the loop on this, but I do know that when the PIS was redone, lots of additional destination (i.e. Redcar) were also recorded as a future-proofing exercise, so it could just be the case that someone took a proactive decision to prepare the fleet for these destinations.

 

[tbtc]

It does but if I'm the ROSCO for the 185s it seems like it would be in my interest to make TPE a deal they can't refuse for the those residual 185s rather than having them lying around costing money or trying to shoehorn them into another operators fleet.

I agree with you - it'll be interesting if the franchise map is tweaked to suit the number of 185s though (e.g. you could give Sheffield - Doncaster - Hull - Bridlington to them or York - Leeds - Bradford - Burnley - Preston - Blackpool...) - based more on how to fit around the number of spare trains than anything else though!

 

[LOL The Irony]

The fact Nottingham, Leicester and Derby appear in the list of destinations on the on board PIS cannot be ignored, especially as the rumour won't go away.

Is it also a mess room rumour?

 

[Jonny]

York - Blackpool would be ideal for them with both hilly sections and fast flat sections but I can’t see Northern taking any on or the route transferring to TPE.

Don't understand why this isn't in the TPE portfolio already

It runs via the Copy Pit route (Burnley Manchester Road) and normally via Halifax which is way out of the way for TPE. It calls at quite a few stations that TPE presently has no need for calling rights at.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Is it also a mess room rumour?

No. Nottingham, Leicester and Derby appear in the PIS as destinations

it could just be the case that someone took a proactive decision to prepare the fleet for these destinations.

That of course is perfectly feasible, after all the 158s had over 900 destinations programmed in to the original PIS and some of them were truly outrageous! XD

 

[LOL The Irony]

No. Nottingham, Leicester and Derby appear in the PIS as destinations

I meant the rumour of them staying & going on LIV - NOT services.

 

[hwl]

I meant the rumour of them staying & going on LIV - NOT services.

With the exception of the 397s all the TPE rolling stock is effectively transferable between routes so there could be some adjustment such as 68+mk5s on LIV - NOT services with 185s staying further North so they pass either of the Siemens depots to reduce ECS moves

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Subject of course to traincrew knowledge!
Despite my obvious keenness, I haven't yet been let loose on a 802, let alone a Mk5! XO

 

[Killingworth]

It would be nice if they could provide 6 cars as booked for the service stopping at Dore & Totley at 7.14 before they allocate any elsewhere. When 3 turn up folks unable to get on walk back for their cars. Then 6 on the 8.15 that you can almost guarantee having to stand all the way to Piccadilly even with a booked seat.

Packed commuter trains don't attract new business. At leisure times groups travelling together don't like being split up all the way along a train to get seats. The car is cheaper for a group so without seats together rail is even less attractive. Playing musical chairs around reservations might be a game some enjoy, but not many.

Before reallocating these units to new routes let's get them working to relieve existing capacity needs and build on them . They've been promised on South Pennine for years. Those using that route know there's surpressed demand held back by that lack of capacity.

Having some reserve units available to cover unexpected contingencies mightn't come amiss either. For months we were fobbed off with 3 carriages because a train had hit horses on the line. Not even a 185. For months. True enough story, but it didn't sell well with commuters unable to get aboard trains or sitting on the floor in first. That lost TPE season ticket sales.