• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Class 185 future

Status
Not open for further replies.

Philip

On Moderation
Joined
27 May 2007
Messages
3,648
Location
Manchester
Like the 175s and 180s, the 185s seem to have an uncertain future beyond their current use. When are TPE expecting to start handing back the units to the ROSCO and potentially where could they end up after their TPE operations?

Out of all the 'short' DMUs in the country, they are probably the closest unit to intercity standard, however they are limited by their fuel usage and their weight; restricting them to lower speeds in many places. The excellent acceleration does make up for the latter problem somewhat.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

D365

Veteran Member
Joined
29 Jun 2012
Messages
11,473
The last I heard was that TPE are retaining the full fleet for the foreseeable.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,913
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
The last I heard was that TPE are retaining the full fleet for the foreseeable.

I'd personally think it more likely that TPE will keep the 185s than some of their other units e.g. 397/Mk5 in the long run. They seem to be reliable and flexible as well as popular with passengers.
 

johnnychips

Established Member
Joined
19 Nov 2011
Messages
3,679
Location
Sheffield
I'd personally think it more likely that TPE will keep the 185s than some of their other units e.g. 397/Mk5 in the long run. They seem to be reliable and flexible as well as popular with passengers.
Agreed. Smashing trains (if they run).
 

MattRat

On Moderation
Joined
26 May 2021
Messages
2,081
Location
Liverpool
It was announced last year that TPE will be acquiring more bi-mode units and that these will replace the 185s.
Do you have any more details, especially since things might have changed due to the 'current economic climate' as the DFT would put it.
 

D365

Veteran Member
Joined
29 Jun 2012
Messages
11,473
It was announced last year that TPE will be acquiring more bi-mode units and that these will replace the 185s.
I thought that the tender for bi-modes is locomotives - unless this is a separate one?

Either way, given that we don't even know what TPE's future rolling stock might look like, it's far too early to speculate.
 

RobShipway

Established Member
Joined
20 Sep 2009
Messages
3,337
I thought that the tender for bi-modes is locomotives - unless this is a separate one?

Either way, given that we don't even know what TPE's future rolling stock might look like, it's far too early to speculate.
I thought the same, that either the class 93 or class 99 would be used in place of the class 68 with the MK5a coaches at TPE, if the the MK5A coaches stay with TPE.

I know that Grand Union has put in a proposal to use the class 93, I believe with MK 4 coaches and DVT on their London Euston to Stirling services. However, I think it would make more sense if TPE are keeping old of all class 186 units, that these are used on services to/from Scarborough in place of the class 68 and MK5A coaches. The MK5A coaches could then be used by Grand Union on their London Euston - Stirling service, as they would need to have a higher top speed than a locomotive only capable of having a 110mph top speed for the Paddington to Llanelli service. Having said that, the class 387 units have been doing the Paddington - Cardiff services at 110mph.
 

busestrains

On Moderation
Joined
9 Sep 2022
Messages
788
Location
Salisbury
Ideally if the 185s do leave FTPE than i think Northern Rail would be the best place for them. As if Northern Rail acquired all of the 175s and 185s this would allow them to withdraw a very large amount of Sprinters which do really need replacing. I think the 185s have a perfect design as their layout makes them suitable for both longer distance intercity trains and shorter distance regional trains. So if they do leave FTPE than i think Northern Rail would be the best place for them.
 

SuperNova

Member
Joined
12 Dec 2019
Messages
960
Location
The North
It was announced last year that TPE will be acquiring more bi-mode units and that these will replace the 185s.
An Expression of Interest was made by TPE last year into more bi-mode units to fully utilise the benefit of the Transpennine Route Upgrade. 25 125mph trains with a minimum of five cars and options for six or seven vehicles in each set.

No confirmation that this is happening, but more than likely to given the investment in electrification on TRU and eventual integration with whatever NPR ends up being. Assume more 80x units.

I thought that the tender for bi-modes is locomotives - unless this is a separate one?

Either way, given that we don't even know what TPE's future rolling stock might look like, it's far too early to speculate.
Also correct, a tender for 15 bi-mode locos to replace class 68s.
Ideally if the 185s do leave FTPE than i think Northern Rail would be the best place for them.
Agreed. However, fully expect TPE to keep a fair amount for the service that should start running in Dec 23 from MAN - HUD - WKK - CFD - YRK, an extension of the stopper. And also South route services.
 

D365

Veteran Member
Joined
29 Jun 2012
Messages
11,473
Agreed. However, fully expect TPE to keep a fair amount for the service that should start running in Dec 23 from MAN - HUD - WKK - CFD - YRK, an extension of the stopper. And also South route services.
Indeed - I don’t see any alternative rolling stock options for Hope Valley at this time.
 

61653 HTAFC

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Dec 2012
Messages
17,684
Location
Another planet...
Ideally if the 185s do leave FTPE than i think Northern Rail would be the best place for them. As if Northern Rail acquired all of the 175s and 185s this would allow them to withdraw a very large amount of Sprinters which do really need replacing. I think the 185s have a perfect design as their layout makes them suitable for both longer distance intercity trains and shorter distance regional trains. So if they do leave FTPE than i think Northern Rail would be the best place for them.
185s aren't really suitable for replacing 150s- they're too heavy to keep to time on many routes, and too expensive to run. For example they couldn't feasibly run Huddersfield to Sheffield, a route that is currently operated by 3-car 150s for most of the week and has had platforms extended to accommodate 60m formations. 185s would be too long for the dedicated bay platform at Huddersfield, and would be restricted to 10mph over Paddock viaduct between Huddersfield and Lockwood. Sure, 185s to Northern wouldn't necessarily mean that they'd directly replace 150s on that route, but even an internal cascade would result in a reduction in capacity. Anything with 23m+ vehicles would be restricted to two coaches, as per the 195s which operate the service on Sundays.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,913
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
185s aren't really suitable for replacing 150s- they're too heavy to keep to time on many routes, and too expensive to run. For example they couldn't feasibly run Huddersfield to Sheffield, a route that is currently operated by 3-car 150s for most of the week and has had platforms extended to accommodate 60m formations. 185s would be too long for the dedicated bay platform at Huddersfield, and would be restricted to 10mph over Paddock viaduct between Huddersfield and Lockwood. Sure, 185s to Northern wouldn't necessarily mean that they'd directly replace 150s on that route, but even an internal cascade would result in a reduction in capacity. Anything with 23m+ vehicles would be restricted to two coaches, as per the 195s which operate the service on Sundays.

The issue of lines with platforms designed for 20m DMUs will need to be resolved (through extensions) as 150s (and the odd 769) are the only 20m vehicle DMUs left, and there won't be any more built, they'll all either be 24m or Stadler odd-lengths. So this will need doing anyway.

I could see a sense in 185s to Northern for use on the originally proposed Northern Connect services, e.g. the WCML routes, or just putting those routes back with TPE as they were a while back. 195s with their high acceleration are proving very useful for Manchester area DMU locals, and it'd be great to be able to release enough of them that ALL their urban/suburban DMU local services used them, allowing some timetable improvements or improved resilience. For instance absent any wires it would be good to bin the 769s off and use 3-car 195s on the Southports and Kirkbys (particularly Kirkby as the acceleration would be a great benefit on the Athertons - they do occasionally show up on the Atherton that terminates at Wigan though). They were ordered for expresses, but in reality their gearbox arrangement renders them superb local units (and they can deal with standing loads well due to the standbacks) - in essence they're more upspecced 172s than long distance units, and would work better on Manchester's equivalents of the Snow Hill lines. Another useful place 195s could be cascaded to by this is the CLC stoppers.

With regard to them being overpowered there is the engine rotation feature, or they could look at removing the engines from the middle coach entirely (there is already electrical crossfeed else the engine rotation wouldn't work) and keeping as spares, though you'd not be able to reduce the weight substantially as the suspension etc will be set up for it, so you may well end up having to put a concrete block in its place.
 

61653 HTAFC

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Dec 2012
Messages
17,684
Location
Another planet...
With regard to them being overpowered there is the engine rotation feature, or they could look at removing the engines from the middle coach entirely (there is already electrical crossfeed else the engine rotation wouldn't work) and keeping as spares, though you'd not be able to reduce the weight substantially as the suspension etc will be set up for it, so you may well end up having to put a concrete block in its place.
The issue isn't that they're overpowered, it's that they're overweight. Eco-mode would reduce fuel consumption but wouldn't reduce track access charges or allow them to use MU or SP differential speeds- which is precisely the reason they're unsuitable for large parts of Northern’s network.

That said, it wouldn't surprise me for some clueless pen-pusher at the DfT to decide that Northern is getting them whether they like it or not, and then scratches their head when the subsidy needs to go up!
 

LOL The Irony

On Moderation
Joined
29 Jul 2017
Messages
5,335
Location
Chinatown, New York
Keeping them with TPE to run in pairs on the non electrified routes such as Cleethorpes and Liverpool to Nottingham when that eventually happens. Strangely, I think the next best place for them would be XC to replace the Turbostars whilst boosting capacity at the same time. A split fleet perhaps?
 

61653 HTAFC

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Dec 2012
Messages
17,684
Location
Another planet...
Keeping them with TPE to run in pairs on the non electrified routes such as Cleethorpes and Liverpool to Nottingham when that eventually happens. Strangely, I think the next best place for them would be XC to replace the Turbostars whilst boosting capacity at the same time. A split fleet perhaps?
For the XC routes that currently use 170s, you run into the differential speeds issue. This is also why they'd be unsuitable for Liverpool to Norwich: a route they were often suggested for in the past. Back at the start of the latest TPE franchise when it was announced that eventually 22 class 185s could go off-lease, I started a thread discussing where would be a suitable home for them. That thread is long-closed now, and the situation has changed enough that there's no point in reopening it, but the main issues with the 185s are the weight (and subsequent inability to use differential speeds); and heavy fuel consumption.

Finding a route where neither of those factors is a showstopper is quite tricky, the Cornish main line replacing Castle sets would have been an option but that's now being done with surplus 80x sets. Other than that, if ASLEF decide to blacklist the Scotrail HSTs I could see 185s being used as a stop-gap providing that door positions and underfloor engines aren't considered a deal-breaker.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,913
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Finding a route where neither of those factors is a showstopper is quite tricky, the Cornish main line replacing Castle sets would have been an option but that's now being done with surplus 80x sets. Other than that, if ASLEF decide to blacklist the Scotrail HSTs I could see 185s being used as a stop-gap providing that door positions and underfloor engines aren't considered a deal-breaker.

I think we'd be more likely to see the 68+Mk5 sets off to Scotland than the 185s (because they could keep them long term post electrification with bimode or electric locos), but overall I think that is even more likely to be the 222s once EMR are finished with them. I'm aware there are fewer 68+Mk5 than HSTs but the HSTs aren't used intensively, and they could also hoover up a few TfW 158s to make up the gap.

That would see 185s remain with TPE replacing the LHCS.
 

LOL The Irony

On Moderation
Joined
29 Jul 2017
Messages
5,335
Location
Chinatown, New York
For the XC routes that currently use 170s, you run into the differential speeds issue. This is also why they'd be unsuitable for Liverpool to Norwich: a route they were often suggested for in the past.
Well it's only as far as Nottingham and they already operate on most of the route anyways.
 

busestrains

On Moderation
Joined
9 Sep 2022
Messages
788
Location
Salisbury
How about Chiltern or SWR diesel mainline routes?
The 185s would be a perfect replacement at SWR for the 158s and 159s which really need replacing. SWR already have a large fleet of the similar 444s and 450s so these would fit in well. So if FTPE get rid of them and Northern Rail do not take them then i certainly think SWR would be a perfect place for them.
 

61653 HTAFC

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Dec 2012
Messages
17,684
Location
Another planet...
Well it's only as far as Nottingham and they already operate on most of the route anyways.
Yeah, with Liverpool to Norwich being split they would be suitable for the northern half. Although I feel 158/170 combinations would be more suitable, as 185s can only operate as 3 or 6-car formations, and I think a 6 would be too long for the usual south-facing bay platform at Sheffield where that service reverses.

The 185s would be a perfect replacement at SWR for the 158s and 159s which really need replacing. SWR already have a large fleet of the similar 444s and 450s so these would fit in well. So if FTPE get rid of them and Northern Rail do not take them then i certainly think SWR would be a perfect place for them.
They certainly wouldn't be pre-COVID due to the drop in capacity compared to the 159s, but with demand down on SWR that might be less of a problem. I'm not overly convinced about the commonality with electric Desiros though, there'll certainly be a small number of shared components, but whether there's enough to create much of a benefit is another matter. The lack of gangways is more of an issue, but not insurmountable.
 
Last edited:

RailWonderer

Established Member
Joined
25 Jul 2018
Messages
1,609
Location
All around the network
The 185s would be a perfect replacement at SWR for the 158s and 159s which really need replacing. SWR already have a large fleet of the similar 444s and 450s so these would fit in well. So if FTPE get rid of them and Northern Rail do not take them then i certainly think SWR would be a perfect place for them.
TPE is not releasing any 185s, this has been confirmed. My bet for the 158/9 replacement would be a bi-mode Aventra.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,913
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
TPE is not releasing any 185s, this has been confirmed.

For now. If cuts are on the way it's quite possible they will be asked to reduce their fleet (though it may not in that case be 185s that went, they're the most reliable and flexible thing they've got).

They certainly wouldn't be pre-COVID due to the drop in capacity compared to the 159s, but with demand down on SWR that might be less of a problem. I'm not overly convinced about the commonality with electric Desiros though, there'll certainly be a small number of shared components, but whether there's enough to create much of a benefit is another matter. The lack of gangways is more of an issue, but not insurmountable.

The capacity issue is mostly two things. One is that they have a very low density interior which could be tightened up to squeeze in more seats (reduce 1st to a small 2+2 section at one end, plus change the all-tables bits to mostly airlines and you'd get another row in like 350s do). Another is that they have wider doors than 158s/159s, but that allows for standees - indeed you could argue in favour of fitting standbacks so they can carry more standees if being used on SWR services.
 

TH172341

Member
Joined
22 Aug 2010
Messages
394
Great units they are, only inconvenience with them is the inability to follow sprinter differential speeds and fuel usage. If a number were to leave TPE at any point, Chiltern or similar work to that would be appropriate. Run far more efficiently doing intercity style work compared to frequent stop-start work. Siemens build quality shows through on them - remember having a heavy object (likely a brick after they were spotted by a passing unit's crew in the other direction) thrown against the bodywork one evening by youths off the embankment and not even a dent.
 

61653 HTAFC

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Dec 2012
Messages
17,684
Location
Another planet...
For now. If cuts are on the way it's quite possible they will be asked to reduce their fleet (though it may not in that case be 185s that went, they're the most reliable and flexible thing they've got).



The capacity issue is mostly two things. One is that they have a very low density interior which could be tightened up to squeeze in more seats (reduce 1st to a small 2+2 section at one end, plus change the all-tables bits to mostly airlines and you'd get another row in like 350s do). Another is that they have wider doors than 158s/159s, but that allows for standees - indeed you could argue in favour of fitting standbacks so they can carry more standees if being used on SWR services.
No doubt with SWR's "race to the bottom" 2+2 first class would be a given if they were given the 185s. Standbacks probably aren't necessary with the stopping pattern of WofE line services, and would probably disrupt the current excellent window alignment... not that SWR give two hoots about such things!
 

SuperNova

Member
Joined
12 Dec 2019
Messages
960
Location
The North
For example they couldn't feasibly run Huddersfield to Sheffield, a route that is currently operated by 3-car 150s for most of the week and has had platforms extended to accommodate 60m formations. 185s would be too long for the dedicated bay platform at Huddersfield,

Assuming the 185s leave TPE if the EOI into bi-mode rolling stock is approved, by that time Huddersfield will be a station with 4 through platforms and two longer bay platforms.

For now. If cuts are on the way it's quite possible they will be asked to reduce their fleet (though it may not in that case be 185s that went, they're the most reliable and flexible thing they've got).

185s are vital to the flexibility of diversionary routes. Realistically, no rolling stock will leave TPE until those key blockades are complete and there's a timeline of new bi-mode rolling stock to enter service.
 

Halifaxlad

Established Member
Joined
5 Apr 2018
Messages
1,382
Location
The White Rose County
It was announced last year that TPE will be acquiring more bi-mode units and that these will replace the 185s.
Was this before or after the publication of the IRP that outlines how the entire Transpennine route will be electrified ?

Personally I cant see them acquiring any more units until the TRU is complete. Nor can I see them being bi-modes although that would be useful for reaching Hull!
 

SuperNova

Member
Joined
12 Dec 2019
Messages
960
Location
The North
Was this before or after the publication of the IRP that outlines how the entire Transpennine route will be electrified ?

Personally I cant see them acquiring any more units until the TRU is complete. Nor can I see them being bi-modes although that would be useful for reaching Hull!
After.

IRP was Nov 21. EOI was March 22
 

61653 HTAFC

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Dec 2012
Messages
17,684
Location
Another planet...
Assuming the 185s leave TPE if the EOI into bi-mode rolling stock is approved, by that time Huddersfield will be a station with 4 through platforms and two longer bay platforms.
AIUI there are no plans for the Sheffield bay to be extended beyond what it got a couple of years ago. This is of course moot, as even if Northern got 185s that route would not be first in the pecking order to use them.

There's been a lot of posts lately about Sprinter (especially 150) replacement, but many of them neglect the fact that there isn't really an obvious replacement for some of the niche jobs that 150s do.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top