Class 185s off lease

[Philip]

Have TPE now finished with the 15 Class 185s that were due to come off lease this month? If so which ones have left TPE and are we any closer to knowing where they will go next?

 

[Watershed]

All 51 are still with TPE. Many services would have to be singled to release any units.

 

[JonathanH]

Reported in another thread that the 15 'spare' 185s aren't going off lease for another 12 months (which isn't exactly surprising seeing the limited use of the 68+Mk5 sets)

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-no-images-please.190693/page-27#post-4904138

No 68’s to Redcar Central, and I wouldn’t expect them to be until December 2021 at the earliest

The latest with the 185’s that were due to go off lease is that they’re actually being retained for a further 12 months

 

[Jamesrob637]

Can't afford to lose even one right now because, among others:

1) South TPE is back to full hourly with all services booked 6-car except for the 20:26 Cleethorpes to Piccadilly which doesn't really need 6 even non COVID

2) Nova 3s have been very slow to enter service despite them actually being the first of the variants in passenger traffic way back on the August Bank Holiday 2019! I think it's something weedy like three sets in service even after the December timetable change!

 

[RHolmes]

All class 185’s are now staying with TPE until December 2021, a further 12 month extension on recommendation from RNP to allow full training of the class 68/Nova 3 to take place ready for introduction on the Redcar Central line December 2021 timetable change

 

[43096]

All class 185’s are now staying with TPE until December 2021, a further 12 month extension on recommendation from RNP to allow full training of the class 68/Nova 3 to take place ready for introduction on the Redcar Central line December 2021 timetable change

That would tie in nicely with the Liverpool-Norwich service split timing, so the 185s could go to EMR to work Liverpool-Nottingham.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Plus a 5-car Nova has very nearly the equivalent capacity of 2x185

 

[DannyMich2018]

Can't afford to lose even one right now because, among others:

1) South TPE is back to full hourly with all services booked 6-car except for the 20:26 Cleethorpes to Piccadilly which doesn't really need 6 even non COVID

2) Nova 3s have been very slow to enter service despite them actually being the first of the variants in passenger traffic way back on the August Bank Holiday 2019! I think it's something weedy like three sets in service even after the December timetable change!

I agree. The Mk5s have been a complete waste of money!!. Even pre Covid only 4 were in use. I think the first Mk5s arrived way back in about May 2018 and the last about a year ago.... . The other two Nova fleets have all been long since been accepted. Most of the TPE 68 are used on freight or more likely spend most of there time parked up doing nothing.

 

[DB]

I agree. The Mk5s have been a complete waste of money!!. Even pre Covid only 4 were in use. I think the first Mk5s arrived way back in about May 2018 and the last about a year ago.... . The other two Nova fleets have all been long since been accepted. Most of the TPE 68 are used on freight or more likely spend most of there time parked up doing nothing.

Probably to some extend this will be because with lower demand TPE have chosen to park those as it's cheaper, assuming they have come to some agreement with DRS on reduced leasing charges while they aren't using all the locos.

 

[Jamesrob637]

I agree. The Mk5s have been a complete waste of money!!. Even pre Covid only 4 were in use. I think the first Mk5s arrived way back in about May 2018 and the last about a year ago.... . The other two Nova fleets have all been long since been accepted. Most of the TPE 68 are used on freight or more likely spend most of there time parked up doing nothing.

397s have been a bit iffy too but a 185 can't substitute anymore so the service will have to be cancelled.

 

[Nym]

397s have been a bit iffy too but a 185 can't substitute anymore so the service will have to be cancelled.

Basically, anything from CAF is being a pain.

 

[Gaz55]

Do TPE have enough units to run most as 6 car formations when the 15 do eventually go off lease?

 

[RHolmes]

Do TPE have enough units to run most as 6 car formations when the 15 do eventually go off lease?

Yes, providing the full acceptance and reliable running of the class 68/Nova 3 fleet. The absolute minimum required for full 6 car operation based on the current end to end timings and disposal would be:

10 for Hull
14 for Cleethorpes
2(4?) for Redcar
3 for stoppers (single units)

29 (31?) out of 36 required for daily service.

 

[47827]

Whilst in the benefit of hindsight 68s and Mk5s aren't modern day compliant with the British model for railways, most of the delays are now linked in to crew training which cannot be quickly resolved, especially with TPE being further inconvenienced by a certain virus. If they had their training done sooner, by using the mk3s to start the ball rolling when the option was there, there would have been a full set of 68 diagrams pre covid most probably. The date of the extra 15 185s being kept until ties in with my recent inclin on when I thought was the earliest all or most 68s would now be out on their diagrams. Sadly, there's no guarantee it will all be dealt with until (or even by) then if little training has restarted before the summer as York depot is much bigger than Scarborough.

 

[Clansman]

Whilst in the benefit of hindsight 68s and Mk5s aren't modern day compliant with the British model for railways

In what respect? The fact that they're new build LHCS?

 

[47827]

In what respect? The fact that they're new build LHCS?

Yes, that's about the only thing though. Aside from that they comply with the rules and regulations of course. Loco hauled passenger trains, having spent the last 30+ years being phased out.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, that's about the only thing though. Aside from that they comply with the rules and regulations of course. Loco hauled passenger trains, having spent the last 30+ years being phased out.

The coaches are fixed formation, so really they are a bit more like a single ended 4-TC or something. To all intents and purposes, the whole thing as one is a multiple unit.

 

[47827]

The coaches are fixed formation, so really they are a bit more like a single ended 4-TC or something. To all intents and purposes, the whole thing as one is a multiple unit.

Yes, of course. As the carriages don't power themselves though it still makes them non standard by modern protocol. The carriages run in fixed formations thus far but the locos have to be switched as required, which will likely happen most days on at least one set once they eventually get them all running.

 

[dorsetdesiro]

Isn't it rumoured EMR are taking some 185s for the Liverpool-Norwich services that the proposal for TPE to run Liv-Derby seems to have been dropped?

 

[RHolmes]

Isn't it rumoured EMR are taking some 185s for the Liverpool-Norwich services that the proposal for TPE to run Liv-Derby seems to have been dropped?

Strongly rumoured but not confirmed, 15 will (should) be available December 2021 and it tied into the fact that the decision for the route to stay with EMR is ‘indefinitely delayed’ and may still be given to TPE or whatever form the current franchise/direct award/agreement will be in the future (presumably 2023?).

TPE weren’t planning to run a Liverpool to Derby service

 

[Crossover]

I think it's something weedy like three sets in service even after the December timetable change!

Yes, 3 daily diagrams for quite some months (2 on Sunday, I think) with two starting/ending at Scarborough and one at Longsight. As of the timetable change, there is only one Nova 3 diagram in each direction per day west of York - most are just shuttling back and forth between York and Scarborough

397s have been a bit iffy too but a 185 can't substitute anymore so the service will have to be cancelled.

How come the 185's can no longer sub? Timings etc?

 

[Watershed]

How come the 185's can no longer sub? Timings etc?

They've been off the line for so long that the relevant depots/links don't sign them any more. That's quite aside from being unable to match 397 timings.

 

[RHolmes]

Yes, 3 daily diagrams for quite some months (2 on Sunday, I think) with two starting/ending at Scarborough and one at Longsight. As of the timetable change, there is only one Nova 3 diagram in each direction per day west of York - most are just shuttling back and forth between York and Scarborough



How come the 185's can no longer sub? Timings etc?

Largely timings.

However as stated above the other issue is that the crew knowledge is now stale for all bar new traincrew. The 185 is still the core training traction for all depots, with the NOVA fleet only having conversion courses. For example a Glasgow conductor must pass and complete several days minding and traction exams on a 185 before then completing a 397 assessment. I believe this is also true for new drivers as all drivers train using the 185 simulator at York and Ardwick

 

[dorsetdesiro]

Strongly rumoured but not confirmed, 15 will (should) be available December 2021 and it tied into the fact that the decision for the route to stay with EMR is ‘indefinitely delayed’ and may still be given to TPE or whatever form the current franchise/direct award/agreement will be in the future (presumably 2023?).

TPE weren’t planning to run a Liverpool to Derby service

Thanks, I meant to say Nottingham not Derby. Wasn't it the plan for the route to be split in half for TPE to run the Liverpool part and presumably EMR to and from Norwich?

 

[warwickshire]

397s have been a bit iffy too but a 185 can't substitute anymore so the service will have to be cancelled.

Out of interest, what is the reason behind no 185 please? What has changed recently?

 

[Crossover]

They've been off the line for so long that the relevant depots/links don't sign them any more. That's quite aside from being unable to match 397 timings.

Largely timings.

However as stated above the other issue is that the crew knowledge is now stale for all bar new traincrew. The 185 is still the core training traction for all depots, with the NOVA fleet only having conversion courses. For example a Glasgow conductor must pass and complete several days minding and traction exams on a 185 before then completing a 397 assessment. I believe this is also true for new drivers as all drivers train using the 185 simulator at York and Ardwick

Thanks both for your replies.

Interesting to hear that all crew will train on 185's, even if some of them will never work one in reality!

 

[Domh245]

Thanks, I meant to say Nottingham not Derby. Wasn't it the plan for the route to be split in half for TPE to run the Liverpool part and presumably EMR to and from Norwich?

It is the plan for the route to be split regardless with EMR getting Nottingham-Norwich and the Nottingham-Liverpool operator being up for debate (although TPE seemed to be the preference from DfT). I'm pretty certain though that it's been confirmed EMR will keep Nottingham-Liverpool, I seem to even remember something to the effect of TPE pulling out of the bidding for it and Northern being asked to put a bid in to operate it before it was decided to keep it with EMR.

 

[James Kevill]

According to wikipedia, it says A Track Access Application made by Grand Union Trains to the Office of Rail and Road also cited the possibility of the use of Class 185s on services between Oxford and Bristol. But I'm not if it's true or not. It could be a rumour or not.

 

[RHolmes]

I seem to even remember something to the effect of TPE pulling out of the bidding for it and Northern being asked to put a bid in to operate it before it was decided to keep it with EMR.

That’s not true, TPE won the route (and announced this to staff in official communication) and began hiring drivers in Liverpool and Sheffield for it and leasing space for a larger depot in Sheffield but due to Covid-19 this decision was put on hiatus by the DFT. Sadly as a result those who applied for the role and were in the assessment process became surplus to requirement.

The route remains with EMR for the time being but the DFT are still considering re-giving this to TPE (or whatever the form the franchise may take) in the near future to improve operational flexibility. One of the issues the route has is that al traincrew are based on the eastern side of the route, when things go wrong this often leads to cancellations or short terminations. If this was a TPE/Northern depot service, you could have traincrew in either Liverpool, Manchester or Sheffield

Yes the route is meant to be split into two routes as of next year from Nottingham.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The route remains with EMR for the time being but the DFT are still considering re-giving this to TPE (or whatever the form the franchise may take) in the near future to improve operational flexibility. One of the issues the route has is that al traincrew are based on the eastern side of the route, when things go wrong this often leads to cancellations or short terminations. If this was a TPE/Northern depot service, you could have traincrew in either Liverpool, Manchester or Sheffield

You've also got that silly multiple-hundred-mile ECS working in the morning which could be avoided.