Class 195 and 331 breakdown of order

[edwin_m]

Calder Valley has the problem of trying to serve several different markets with the same train - ideally it would need a proper mix of express and stoppers with overtaking en route but we're not going to get that at least in this franchise. But one of the political objectives is to provide Bradford with a service that doesn't look like an afterthought compared to Leeds. I think this points to new train quality plus wide doors for slick operation at intermediate stops, so 195s for Bradford-Airport. Weren't they talking about 170s for the Chester trains?

I don't think the current Leeds-Nottingham loads heavily unless it happens to form a commuter service at Leeds, which will be less of a problem once it doesn't use the Barnsley line. To my mind 158s would be fine for this, but I think 195s have been promised at least for some journeys.

 

[Philip]

For Liverpool-Manchester and Manchester-Chester Northern will be competing with other franchises so might want to show that they have some decent new trains, especially if they want to sell Advance fares without undercutting the rival operator.

But the 158s should be as good as new themselves. The 195s look like they're going to be a glorified 150, so perhaps not appropriate for routes where there'll be a lot of long distance passengers.

 

[northwichcat]

Edwinw - No 170s for Southport to Leeds via Dewsbury which won't be a Connect service.

 

[lejog]

I think there might be a small riot amongst Calder Valley commuters if 158s are retained on the line, after Northern have trumpeted new trains to the local press and to local user groups.

The fact that some Calder Valley trains are to be lengthened to 6*23m, shows they are likely to be run by 3 car 195s, especially as Northern's 3 car 158s currently running on the line seem destined to run the improved Blackburn/Clitheroe services.

 

[lejog]

Worth noting too that of all of the Connect Calder Valley routes, only the Chester and Blackpool services are confirmed to serve Leeds. It also states that the Southport service will originate from either Leeds or Bradford Interchange.

While it is true that the Franchise Agreement doesn't mandate which of the Liverpool/Manchester Airport services continue past Bradford to Leeds, at least one of them must to satisfy the minimum Hebden Bridge to Bradford to Leeds service requirement. There really would be riots if the service was cut from 3tph to 2tph.

 

[northwichcat]

The 195s look like they're going to be a glorified 150, so perhaps not appropriate for routes where there'll be a lot of long distance passengers.

So are 170s and 185s 'glorified 150s' in your opinion?

 

[NorthernSpirit]

The class 170's to me are glorified turbo charged class 144's.

What I find rather daft is the fact that the Southport to Leeds via Dewsbury isn't going to be Northern Connect - yet its a faster route than via Bradford and when eventually electrified I very much doubt that the 331's will be used on it, more likley class 319's.

ARN should have realistically ordered 99 4 car class 195's to replace the remaining 94 class 142's (plus five extra to replace any units lost in being reformed into three or four car hybrids), likewise with the 331's again around 50 units should have been ordered.

 

[Andyh82]

I would just hope that if the new trains do fill up, if there are any options for additional centre cars to be purchased, they are taken up. We don't want another situation like the 185s again.

 

[ag51ruk]

The class 170's to me are glorified turbo charged class 144's.

They're faster, quieter, more doors so quicker to board, have accessible toilets.and easier boarding, air conditioning, bogies rather than fixed wheelbase, more comfortable seats, and are built to more recent crash-worthiness standards. Apart from that, they're identical...

 

[northwichcat]

They're faster, quieter, more doors so quicker to board, have accessible toilets.and easier boarding, air conditioning, bogies rather than fixed wheelbase, more comfortable seats, and are built to more recent crash-worthiness standards. Apart from that, they're identical...

So the similarities are they are both powered by diesel, they both carry passengers and the driver has a cab (which isn't the case with some of the rail buses built by Mercedes.)

 

[northwichcat]

The ex-LM (and current LM) 150/2s are as built, the others have had seats removed e.g. to add big bogs.

150/1s had a less dense all-facing layout as built, but the ex-FNW ones have had seating reduced further because of the large bog.

The ex-ATN 150/2s had some seats removed as part of creating a reasonable sized wheelchair bay.

 

[Philip]

So are 170s and 185s 'glorified 150s' in your opinion?

They are yes and yes by 'glorified' I mean an improvement on the 150, but they are both essentially based on the 150 and so will the 195s be.

Class 150s are very solid units for the purpose they were built for - commuter traffic. The Turbostars re a bit iffy due to the dreadful acceleration, but the 185 is an excellent train as far as a commuter train goes. Hopefully the 195 will be a good commuter train too, but let's not start pretending they are going to be intercity-style trains, they clearly won't be and I hope Northern will see that.

 

[noddingdonkey]

Does the fact that the 158 and 195 classes can't be coupled present any operational difficulty? I'm thinking in terms of the early morning ECS moves, but also would it make it more likely that all of the units working on a particular route would be of the same class rather than mix and match, to make it easier to rescue failed units?

 

[lejog]

ARN should have realistically ordered 99 4 car class 195's to replace the remaining 94 class 142's (plus five extra to replace any units lost in being reformed into three or four car hybrids), likewise with the 331's again around 50 units should have been ordered.

So have ARN discovered a money tree in the garden to pay for these extra new trains? The order is already costing £480m and you think they should "realistically" be ordering twice as many, near enough £1bn worth?

 

[Starmill]

I don't understand where 195 vs 150 comes from. They are completly different in almost every way.

 

[northwichcat]

Does the fact that the 158 and 195 classes can't be coupled present any operational difficulty? I'm thinking in terms of the early morning ECS moves, but also would it make it more likely that all of the units working on a particular route would be of the same class rather than mix and match, to make it easier to rescue failed units?

They'll find a solution. ATW manage to use 158s and 175s on the same routes so 158s and 195s won't be much different.

If a Nottingham train was to fail near Wakefield and it was a 158 would it matter if the next service was a 195 as a 150 off a Huddersfield local could be used to rescue the failed 158.

 

[northwichcat]

They are yes and yes by 'glorified' I mean an improvement on the 150, but they are both essentially based on the 150 and so will the 195s be.

Class 150s are very solid units for the purpose they were built for - commuter traffic. The Turbostars re a bit iffy due to the dreadful acceleration, but the 185 is an excellent train as far as a commuter train goes. Hopefully the 195 will be a good commuter train too, but let's not start pretending they are going to be intercity-style trains, they clearly won't be and I hope Northern will see that.

The 150s were designed to have short, wide carriages so that they could fit 3+2 seating in without presenting clearance issues. The Pacers and 150s are the only DMUs which have short, wide carriages - the rest (including 170s and 185s) have been designed to have longer narrower carriages meaning 3+2 seating wouldn't be a possible option and as well as fitting 2+2 seating the option to include tables has been taken up each time whether we are talking about 156s or 185s.

The ATW 150s and some of the GWR 150s have been refurbished to have a less commuter like interior but that doesn't put the trains on a par with newer 170s.

170s actually have better acceleration than 142s and 150s. The claim about poor acceleration originated from their MML use where it was proposed they could get from A to B as quickly as a HST despite their 100mph top speed due to superior acceleration, which turned out to not be as superior as promised.

No-one's claiming Northern Connect will be Intercity. However, not being Intercity doesn't automatically make them commuter services.

 

[northwichcat]

So have ARN discovered a money tree in the garden to pay for these extra new trains? The order is already costing £480m and you think they should "realistically" be ordering twice as many, near enough £1bn worth?

Arriva aren't buying the trains, Eversholt Rail are and Northern will pay back some the build costs through leasing costs during the course of the franchise and the rest will be paid by one or more future TOCs.