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Class 195 and Cumbrian Coast Line Loading Gauge compatibility

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thenorthern

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Are the new Class 195 trains compatible with the Cumbrian Coast line's loading gauge given the very low loading gauge of the line between Maryport and Carlisle which prevents a lot of stock using the line.
 
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Taylor-j01

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Is the 195 class compatible with the cumbrian coast

I think the member has a valid question. Hardly theoretical.
There will be a day class 156 retire , are they the replacement ?
With height on this route is the constraint for the 195
 

JonathanH

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Is the 195 class compatible with the cumbrian coast

I think the member has a valid question. Hardly theoretical.
There will be a day class 156 retire , are they the replacement ?
With height on this route is the constraint for the 195

I agree that the OP has a valid question but for the time being it is theoretical - there will come a time when 156s are retired but that time is some way off.

When the time comes for 156s to be retired, there could no doubt be an assessment to see whether 195s or some other rolling stock can be used in their place. I doubt they will have done that clearance work yet and besides, if they aren't going to be used there at the moment, the track height could change between now and when any consideration is made about them working there.

There is a bit of chat on the topic here https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/windermere-branch-timetable.185716/page-2#post-4423783.

It has been suggested that the reason it has been possible to finance new DMU rolling stock is that there are routes such as the Cumbrian Coast that they will be able to go to when the routes they initially work get electrified.
 

Geeves

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Are the new Class 195 trains compatible with the Cumbrian Coast line's loading gauge given the very low loading gauge of the line between Maryport and Carlisle which prevents a lot of stock using the line.

There is some stipulation in the sectional appendix that states any trains with drop light windows are to have staff in attendance how ever there doesnt seem to be any other issue with stock loading guage. I cannot think of any of the large locos that have not gone up the coast so you would imagine a 195 would be okay?

As has been said there is no call for them to be cleared at the present time. Plus I dont think anyone except Barrow depot currently signs said units either.
 

_toommm_

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how ever there doesnt seem to be any other issue with stock loading guage. I cannot think of any of the large locos that have not gone up the coast so you would imagine a 195 would be okay?

If I remember correctly 150s and 153s are banned off the Cumbrian Coast
 

Anvil1984

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If I remember correctly 150s and 153s are banned off the Cumbrian Coast

Close, its 150s and 158s that have the issues (indeed 153s were used on this line for a number of years.

150s have a prohibition Carlisle to Maryport but clear the rest of the way
158s have a specific prohibition Barrow to Whitehaven but no clearance neither for the rest of the route
 
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Im fairly sure ive read on here that they have worked as far as Millom for whatever reason, as did classes 185 and 175 in the past so it must be worthwhile operationally to clear them that far.
 
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Im fairly sure ive read on here that they have worked as far as Millom for whatever reason, as did classes 185 and 175 in the past so it must be worthwhile operationally to clear them that far.
There was a service in the late 90's early 2000's that left Liverpool mid afternoon for Barrow that brought a 150/2 up the Cumbrian Coast. It did the rush hour Barrow to Millom turnback. I think the unit would then head back south in the evening. Through services from Liverpool finished when the Virgin VHF timetable came in I think.
 

Bletchleyite

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It has been suggested that the reason it has been possible to finance new DMU rolling stock is that there are routes such as the Cumbrian Coast that they will be able to go to when the routes they initially work get electrified.

I've also heard it suggested that that, not Northern's temptation to run them solo on busy routes, was the reason for the ordering of 2-car units.
 
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There was a service in the late 90's early 2000's that left Liverpool mid afternoon for Barrow that brought a 150/2 up the Cumbrian Coast. It did the rush hour Barrow to Millom turnback. I think the unit would then head back south in the evening. Through services from Liverpool finished when the Virgin VHF timetable came in I think.
Thanks! You have just confirmed something that had been bugging me, I know now Ihave travelled on this and late 90s is spot on, was it a Liverpool to Millom through train? im sure it was even in Merseyrail livery.
 

Whisky Papa

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I thought the issue with Class 150 was a width restriction in the tunnel at Whitehaven? Certainly at the time I was involved, Barrow did not sign this class, and all Northern trains between Barrow and Lancaster were Classes 142, 153 or 156 even though a 150 would have had no clearance issues on this stretch.
 
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Thanks! You have just confirmed something that had been bugging me, I know now Ihave travelled on this and late 90s is spot on, was it a Liverpool to Millom through train? im sure it was even in Merseyrail livery.
As I remember it. There was an early morning train to liverpool from Barrow. And in the late afternoon one that either was SX or SO through working to Millom. It definitely came from Liverpool. It was indeed yellow on occasions.
 
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I thought the issue with Class 150 was a width restriction in the tunnel at Whitehaven? Certainly at the time I was involved, Barrow did not sign this class, and all Northern trains between Barrow and Lancaster were Classes 142, 153 or 156 even though a 150 would have had no clearance issues on this stretch.
I can remember arriving at Lancaster one evening on the last train from Kendal, must be about 20 years ago. Wanted to go back to Carnforth where I lived then. The unit arrived in the bay platform. I got off. They coupled up to another unit already there. In order to take them both back to Barrow for the night. When the guard turned up 5 minutes later, heard him saying I'm not signed for that unit. So they had to split them up again. Left the other one there for the night. It was a 150.
 

thenorthern

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There is some stipulation in the sectional appendix that states any trains with drop light windows are to have staff in attendance how ever there doesnt seem to be any other issue with stock loading guage. I cannot think of any of the large locos that have not gone up the coast so you would imagine a 195 would be okay?

As has been said there is no call for them to be cleared at the present time. Plus I dont think anyone except Barrow depot currently signs said units either.

It's also the height of the train I know Class 158s are not allowed to run over the line.
 

a_c_skinner

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It is a pretty theoretical question isn't it. They aren't planned to operate over the route.

But it is a question that needs to be answered before stock for the route becomes a pressing issue. To the casual observer often it seems that there isn't a huge amount of forethought given to clearing routes for different stock. Looking at the sectional appendix exactly what is cleared or not for Maryport to Carlisle seems a difficult to understand and some is cleared empty but not for normal traffic. I assume this is door/droplight related for coaching stock. Could someone elaborate?
 

The Lad

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There is at least one bridge Maryport way with a speed restriction through it for reasons of clearance.
 

JonathanH

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But it is a question that needs to be answered before stock for the route becomes a pressing issue. To the casual observer often it seems that there isn't a huge amount of forethought given to clearing routes for different stock.

As a casual observer, I'd say that it isn't a problem for a few years though. At some point, someone will start to look at 156s and say that they aren't going to be able to continue but there isn't going to come a day where they are just taken out of service. Equally, someone at Barrow isn't going to find they have a 195 available and not a 156 and send it to Carlisle - they will just cancel the service because the diagram may involve staff at another traincrew depot on the coast who are not trained. When the time comes for replacement of 156s in ten years or so, they will consider what changes need to be made to accommodate 195s and how much training is needed.

I agree that it all this interesting and if some could elaborate on each of the restrictions and why they apply it would be great. Perhaps a locally based expert on the line's operation.

However, if we look to other parts of the network, an operator decides that they want to use a particular type of train on a given route, speaks to Network Rail and there is then a process to ensure they can operate - eg there was a process to get 165s and 166s cleared over the western network which involved ride-height modifications, changes to platform clearances etc. Most trains can be made to fit in some way or another but that work isn't sanctioned until shortly before it comes a pressing issue, not as a nice to have.

For the time being, 195s are fully utilised on the Northern Connect network, not primarily on regional, secondary or local routes and 156s have just gone through a overhaul.
 

61653 HTAFC

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The droplight issue is a separate matter (though still clearance related) which is solved by fitting bars over the windows. The mk2s on the 37-hauled sets had bars, as did any 1st-gen units that ran up there in the 1980s.

Not sure if the rules have changed since the turn of the year and stewards are now required in addition to bars, but I think it's still an either/or situation. Charters of course require stewards due to the lack of central door locking.
 

fulmar

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Class 195s are currently permitted to work between Barrow and Maryport, but not between Maryport and Carlisle, the same as class 150s. I believe 195s have worked passenger services between Barrow and Millom but do not know if they have been any further.
 
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themiller

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Reported as 2x195/0 this morning up to Maryport and back..



195018 leading 195010 northbound.
 

Geeves

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Can confirm 195010 and 018 were the units in question. I guess them not fitting through the tunnel at Whiteheaven can be put to bed now.
 

markymark2000

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I hope that they do look more into 195s on the Cumbrian Coast. When I have been on the Sellafield worker services, I have noticed a number get off at Barrow (As it's the terminus), use the underpass then board a Manchester bound service. Perhaps if 195s were looked more into, it could provide scope for through services.

Depending on if the 195s are cheaper to run than sprinters and if they have a similar timing, there could be some through services being created (Not long distance of course but perhaps the Millom and Sellafield short trips).
 

Bletchleyite

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It'd be good to see (wait for it :) ) a regularised hourly Takt, the Coast is mostly hourly now anyway. 4 cars Manchester Airport-Barrow, 2 forward to Carlisle, every hour (except when Windermere needs the path, in that case start from Lancaster but otherwise the same). 195 clearance would aid that and it'd be a good use for the 2-car sets.
 

Paul_10

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With any luck, this is a precursor to gauge clearance north of Maryport!

Hopefully so because the 156s won't be here forever so the 2 car 195s should be the perfect replacement really if there is no issues with clearance of course.
 

Adam0984

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I think they're using the spare capacity to gauge clear some lines that won't necessarily be used for but is ready is the need arises like a change to diagrammed traction or a last minute change
 
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