Class 210 Driving Motor

[delt1c]

Never got to see the 210's operating however reading an article regarding them one thing I noticed was that on the drivers side of the power car the blue/ stopped prior to the engine room and grills were painted Blue. However I recently saw a picture of the 2nd mans side and this showed blue grey continuing to the cab , also no grills on this side but an additional window ( I presume for engine room). Viewed for this side the unit looked extremely odd. Would be grateful if anyone has pictures as 210.001 had ( I believe ) a brake van, whilst 210.002 didnt.

 

[OVS Flatbottom]

Didn't the 210 have a corridor past the engine room (hence window and no grilles on corridor side)? I half-recall reading a paper in the Proceedings of the Institution of Mechanical Engineers that mentioned the fact that BR had insisted on this and that it gave rise to various difficulties (e.g. I think the partition between engine room and corridor had to be a roller shutter or otherwise removable because some of the equipment could only be reached from that side).

 

[Helvellyn]

I've looked up some old BR Diagram Books and the one for DEMUs does indeed show a corridor down the side of the engine room on the Secondman's side. The diagram doesn't show any access to the engine room other than one external door and one internal. The latter was in the vestibule immediately behind the cab on the Driver's side.

The interesting thing is that only two Class 210s were built but the two power cars were slightly different. One was a DMSO and the other was a DMBSO. The latter had an extra set of sliding doors between the engine room and the passengers set of doors that gave access to a parcel compartment. This also had the side corridor on the Secondman's side, with sliding doors (I assume manually operated) to close off the compartment if the side corridor was in use.

 

[DerekC]

There is a nice picture of the business end of the preserved NIR Class 450 here, which I guess is similar since it was largely based on the Class 210.


https://www.geograph.ie/photo/4211000

 

[hexagon789]

I've looked up some old BR Diagram Books and the one for DEMUs does indeed show a corridor down the side of the engine room on the Secondman's side. The diagram doesn't show any access to the engine room other than one external door and one internal. The latter was in the vestibule immediately behind the cab on the Driver's side.

The interesting thing is that only two Class 210s were built but the two power cars were slightly different. One was a DMSO and the other was a DMBSO. The latter had an extra set of sliding doors between the engine room and the passengers set of doors that gave access to a parcel compartment. This also had the side corridor on the Secondman's side, with sliding doors (I assume manually operated) to close off the compartment if the side corridor was in use.

They also had different engines and electrical equipment -

The three-car inner suburban units had a 1,140hp Paxman engine and Brush electrical equipment
The four-car outer suburban had a 1,125hp MTU engine and GEC electrical equipment

There is a nice picture of the business end of the preserved NIR Class 450 here, which I guess is similar since it was largely based on the Class 210.


https://www.geograph.ie/photo/4211000

I understood they were effectively the same design DEMU as their predecessor 70 Class but now with the passengers conveyed in a BR Class 455-style Mk3 bodyshell from which their class number is derived.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Didn't the 210 have a corridor past the engine room (hence window and no grilles on corridor side)? I half-recall reading a paper in the Proceedings of the Institution of Mechanical Engineers that mentioned the fact that BR had insisted on this and that it gave rise to various difficulties (e.g. I think the partition between engine room and corridor had to be a roller shutter or otherwise removable because some of the equipment could only be reached from that side).

It was a side corridor - I walked through it once; it was about the same width as the ones on the Mk 3 Sleepers. Same sort of grey plastic walls as well - definitely not a roller shutter, so I would assume removable panels.

 

[Richard Scott]

I understood they were effectively the same design DEMU as their predecessor 70 Class but now with the passengers conveyed in a BR Class 455-style Mk3 bodyshell from which their class number is derived.

They were actually mark 1 (I believe) underframes with mark 3 style bodywork on top so not integral structure like the 210s. Totally different, also had recovered 4 cylinder EE engines (same as the 70s, as you stated) so more in common with a 205 than a 210!

 

[Journeyman]

Never seeing a 210 in action up-close is one of my big spotting annoyances, although I think I did catch a quick glimpse of one once. I didn't know they had side corridors past the engine room - I wonder if the plan was to allow through access between units for punters? Obviously this is something that never materialised with 455s, despite them having gangwayed cabs. I wonder what the noise levels were like?

Interestingly, this YouTube clip (turn the sound up!) shows the blue section on the corridor side extending to the same point as the other side, so clearly the paint scheme was changed at some point.

An interesting modern version of this, I suppose, is the gangway through the engine module of the bi-mode FLIRTs.

They were actually mark 1 (I believe) underframes with mark 3 style bodywork on top so not integral structure like the 210s. Totally different, also had recovered 4 cylinder EE engines (same as the 70s, as you stated) so more in common with a 205 than a 210!

Yeah, they bore only a very superficial resemblance to the 210s. I only got to ride one once, in 2006, but it was a bit weird riding something that was like an unrefurbished 455 inside, that made a racket like a Southern Thumper! They were pretty awful, to be honest, and NIR's new trains are a huge improvement on them.

 

[Irascible]

I saw one once while I was passing through Reading, the paint stopping halfway does fit the ( good grief that was a long time ago ) faint memory I have from pretty damn youing me. That Paxman engined one sounds rather wonderful... without the ear-wrecking turbo you can actually hear the engine. Somewhat underpowered, though.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

It’s relatively common knowledge but the train featured in the music video of Jimmy Somerville/Bronski Beats hit single Smalltown Boy is one of the 210s

Watching this similar video also from Twyford you can clearly hear the distinctive paxman engine sound that sounds remarkably like a valenta but without the noise from the marstons or from the turbos

 

[Irascible]

Watching this similar video also from Twyford you can clearly hear the distinctive paxman engine sound that sounds remarkably like a valenta but without the noise from the marstons or from the turbos

It is a Valenta, just a v6. If the v12 crank angles were the same ( likely ) then it'd sound almost identical, just not as noisy.

 

[delt1c]

I've looked up some old BR Diagram Books and the one for DEMUs does indeed show a corridor down the side of the engine room on the Secondman's side. The diagram doesn't show any access to the engine room other than one external door and one internal. The latter was in the vestibule immediately behind the cab on the Driver's side.

The interesting thing is that only two Class 210s were built but the two power cars were slightly different. One was a DMSO and the other was a DMBSO. The latter had an extra set of sliding doors between the engine room and the passengers set of doors that gave access to a parcel compartment. This also had the side corridor on the Secondman's side, with sliding doors (I assume manually operated) to close off the compartment if the side corridor was in use.

I had noticed the extra sliding doors on drivers side of DMSO on 210.002 , however no such doors on Secondmans side, so would have been an operational nightmare

 

[43096]

It is a Valenta, just a v6. If the v12 crank angles were the same ( likely ) then it'd sound almost identical, just not as noisy.

It was an in-line six cylinder Valenta, not a V6.

 

[hexagon789]

They were actually mark 1 (I believe) underframes with mark 3 style bodywork on top so not integral structure like the 210s. Totally different, also had recovered 4 cylinder EE engines (same as the 70s, as you stated) so more in common with a 205 than a 210!

I think what I meant was in a technical sense they were more like their predecessor 70 Class than the BR 210s.

Perhaps if they'd had a ~1100hp engine they might actually have accelerated half-decently!

Somewhat underpowered, though.

Some logs I've seen suggests even the four-car could happily attain it's rated 90mph and that acceleration to 80mph was as good as an EMU on the 3-car sets.

 

[A0]

Have to admit I'm surprised that some mad-man (or woman) hasn't come up with a crackpot scheme to recreate the 210 using a soon-to-be scrapped Cl 317 or 455 as the base.......

 

[Irascible]

It was an in-line six cylinder Valenta, not a V6.

Right, my bad - was mixing it with the 6 cyl Ventura. Still going to sound like half a Valenta

Some logs I've seen suggests even the four-car could happily attain it's rated 90mph and that acceleration to 80mph was as good as an EMU on the 3-car sets.

Any idea what the trailers weighed? I had a bunch of diagram books once but they've absconded. 4-car had about the same power per vehicle as a 150, but set up for 90mph. The 3 car is more like a 158 ( a bit more, in fact ).

Have to admit I'm surprised that some mad-man (or woman) hasn't come up with a crackpot scheme to recreate the 210 using a soon-to-be scrapped Cl 317 or 455 as the base.......

As retrobuilds or whatever you want to call it go, that's probably one of the easier ones, at least all the powerplant is above the floor... not sure what the power bogies were though, the powercars weighed 60+ tons so not exactly lightweight! I'm sure half the vehicles are still around in various places.

 

[Journeyman]

Have to admit I'm surprised that some mad-man (or woman) hasn't come up with a crackpot scheme to recreate the 210 using a soon-to-be scrapped Cl 317 or 455 as the base.......

Right, where do we start?!?

 

[Irascible]

Right, where do we start?!?

One of the baby Valentas still exists, you'll just have to persuade the museum that it'd be better off in an ex-455

 

[Journeyman]

One of the baby Valentas still exists, you'll just have to persuade the museum that it'd be better off in an ex-455

Nah, you want an early 317. I reckon it could actually be done, although it would be a big job, especially transplanting the motor bogies onto the driving motor vehicle.

 

[hexagon789]

Have to admit I'm surprised that some mad-man (or woman) hasn't come up with a crackpot scheme to recreate the 210 using a soon-to-be scrapped Cl 317 or 455 as the base.......

The power cars weren't even scrapped that long ago in general terms, 2003. Shame no one preserved even one of them.

I've looked up some old BR Diagram Books and the one for DEMUs does indeed show a corridor down the side of the engine room on the Secondman's side.

It was a side corridor - I walked through it once; it was about the same width as the ones on the Mk 3 Sleepers. Same sort of grey plastic walls as well - definitely not a roller shutter, so I would assume removable panels.

I had a dig around and found a description that stated the corridor wall was formed of removable sound-proofed panels. However, the design was modified to allow for normal maintenance to be performed from the one side only to the extent of having a one-sided cooler group. This apparently did cause some some issues as the engines weren't optimally cooled and fuel consumption was increased as the engines were working harder.

Any idea what the trailers weighed? I had a bunch of diagram books once but they've absconded. 4-car had about the same power per vehicle as a 150, but set up for 90mph. The 3 car is more like a 158 ( a bit more, in fact ).

From BR Diagram Book no. 230

Three-car unit:
DMS - 62 tonnes
TS - 26.5 tonnes
DTS - 29 tonnes

Four-car unit:
DMBS - 62 tonnes
TS - 26.5 tonnes
TCL - 26.5 tonnes
DTS - 29 tonnes

Both types are listed as having 4×250 hp motors and the engines as 1,100hp rather than the usually stated 1,125 Paxman and 1,140hp MTU

 

[Richard Scott]

Nah, you want an early 317. I reckon it could actually be done, although it would be a big job, especially transplanting the motor bogies onto the driving motor vehicle.

I'd be sceptical, bet there's some substantial reinforcement around the engine area!

 

[hexagon789]

Nah, you want an early 317. I reckon it could actually be done, although it would be a big job, especially transplanting the motor bogies onto the driving motor vehicle.

I'd agree, they are very similar appearance-wise to 317s and were designed to multi with them

 

[Journeyman]

The power cars weren't even scrapped that long ago in general terms, 2003. Shame no one preserved even one of them.

An attempt was made, if I remember rightly. Not sure why it failed, I suspect it didn't generate much interest, and/or the vehicles were in very bad condition by then. One driving trailer exists in preservation, of course, following its use for traction development purposes by NSE, and a couple of (heavily rebuilt) trailers went into accident damaged class 455 units. They're still knocking about, although following the major SWT refurbs, they're very hard to tell apart from the rest of the fleet.

 

[Irascible]

Nah, you want an early 317. I reckon it could actually be done, although it would be a big job, especially transplanting the motor bogies onto the driving motor vehicle.

The 317 motor coach seems to have the same pattern bogies ( not the same subtype, no idea what's different ) - might be better off stripping the AC gear & sticking a cab on that! um, good luck...

 

[Journeyman]

The 317 motor coach seems to have the same pattern bogies ( not the same subtype, no idea what's different ) - might be better off stripping the AC gear & sticking a cab on that! um, good luck...

OK, you've just volunteered for Chief Engineer duties. I hereby call this meeting of the Class 210 Re-Creation Society to order!

 

[WAO]

The power cars weren't even scrapped that long ago in general terms, 2003. Shame no one preserved even one.

We did try but RT wanted an enormous sum just to shunt one, worried about it causing delay penalties.

The DTSO 60300 (now 67300) survives in excellent condition at the East Kent. Two more cars live on in typical SR fashion, trailer 60400 now 67400 in 455.912 and former DTSO 60301 now MSO 67301 in 455.913 units, IIRC.

The power cars had a similar body style to the DTSO's so a 317 DTSO lookalike is feasible, with some window openings adjusted.

WAO

 

[hexagon789]

An attempt was made, if I remember rightly. Not sure why it failed, I suspect it didn't generate much interest, and/or the vehicles were in very bad condition by then. One driving trailer exists in preservation, of course, following its use for traction development purposes by NSE, and a couple of (heavily rebuilt) trailers went into accident damaged class 455 units. They're still knocking about, although following the major SWT refurbs, they're very hard to tell apart from the rest of the fleet.

I do seem to remember reading there was an attempt, though not who by. But it of course failed which I still think was a shame.

I'm one of those people who wishes that at least one example of everything was preserved!

We did try but RT wanted an enormous sum just to shunt one, worried about it causing delay penalties.

The DTSO 60300 (now 67300) survives in excellent condition at the East Kent. Two more cars live on in typical SR fashion, trailer 60400 now 67400 in 455.912 and former DTSO 60301 now MSO 67301 in 455.913 units, IIRC.

The power cars had a similar body style to the DTSO's so a 317 DTSO lookalike is feasible, with some window openings adjusted.

WAO

Fair enough, that is unfortunate. Kudos first trying though and as you say a 317 cut-and-shut job is feasible enough should anyone care to try. Stranger things have happened...

 

[Irascible]

OK, you've just volunteered for Chief Engineer duties. I hereby call this meeting of the Class 210 Re-Creation Society to order!

So we need two 317 motor cars, a spare 317 cab, some persuasion to release the engine, a Brush alternator & control gear circa 1980, a 455 driving car and a trailer with enough space underfloor for all the arcane 70s-80s electrickery to make the lot work together, an arc welder & some hammers, and hey presto a vintage tri-mode unit!

In all fairness attempting to build a motor unit from a rather obscure 40 year old DMU out of redundant parts *is* the sort of bizarre project I'd enjoy being part of, but not enough that I'd want to fund it I wonder how much of the engine is spares compatible with a v12 Valenta.

 

[hexagon789]

So we need two 317 motor cars, a spare 317 cab, some persuasion to release the engine, a Brush alternator & control gear circa 1980, a 455 driving car and a trailer with enough space underfloor for all the arcane 70s-80s electrickery to make the lot work together, an arc welder & some hammers, and hey presto a vintage tri-mode unit!

In all fairness attempting to build a motor unit from a rather obscure 40 year old DMU out of redundant parts *is* the sort of bizarre project I'd enjoy being part of, but not enough that I'd want to fund it I wonder how much of the engine is spares compatible with a v12 Valenta.

I like the idea, I would quite like to be part of something like that as well actually.

One thing I'd love to know is exactly how the control system worked on 210s. The brakes were standard Westcode but while the power handle was standard EMU 4-notch style I've not seen any explanation of how that tied in to power delivery.

They were meant to operate as closely as possible to a 317, so presumably the power notches correspond to that approximately but I don't know if the design had the engine effectively as a continous rpm generator essentially fooling the motors into thinking they were running off an electric supply or if the engines increased revs for each notch as with a conventional Thumper DEMU.

 

[Irascible]

One thing I'd love to know is exactly how the control system worked on 210s. The brakes were standard Westcode but while the power handle was standard EMU 4-notch style I've not seen any explanation of how that tied in to power delivery.

They were meant to operate as closely as possible to a 317, so presumably the power notches correspond to that approximately but I don't know if the design had the engine effectively as a continous rpm generator essentially fooling the motors into thinking they were running off an electric supply or if the engines increased revs for each notch as with a conventional Thumper DEMU.

33056 for these things must be absurdly rare unless there's one lying around in a box in Derby somewhere. One of the videos ( the one with the powercar at the back ) appears to show it notching up after it's got moving a bit, but there's a footbridge in the way to muddle matters.