Class 315 and 317

[CardiffKid]

In a nut shell what's the difference between Class 315 and 317?

 

[SGS]

315s: inner-suburban, derived from 4-PEP prototype, aluminium-bodied, 75mph, no end corridor connection.

317s: outer-suburban, derived from Mk3 coach, steel-bodied, 100mph, end corridor connection.

 

[joeykins82]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_315
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_317

317 is based on the Mk3 bodyshell (all steel), 315 on the PEP (aluminium)
317 capable of 100mph, 315 only 75mph

At least, that's what wikipedia says so it probably isn't true!

 

[badassunicorn]

315's are bullet proof little units and 317's are big heaps of cr*p!
315's have two motor coaches so better acceleration, electric doors, no toilet etc

 

[joeykins82]

Apparently Wikipedia speaks the truth. All hail the internet!

 

[Peter Sarf]

Differences

From a passenger point of view :-
317 has loos,
317 has inter-unit gangway connections.

Technically :-
315 was the last of the PEP style units (same family as classes 313, 314, 507 & 508).
317 was the first of the post PEP style (same family as classes 455, 456, 318, then argualbly 319, 320, 321 & 322).
Thus a 315 has a lower roof profile. Can see this in the single 508 coach that was used in each of the newer 455s (one subclass only 455/7 or 455/9 ?). that SWT have.

Stand to be corrected on the detail as no time to check, sorry !.

DOH - beaten to it by several people despite my rushed reply !.

 

[WestCountry]

Quite a lot - more than between, say, 317s and 321s.

The 315s are (like 313/314 and 507/508) derived from the PEP prototypes, with a rather oddly-profiled* aluminium bodyshell.
317s on the other hand were the first major class with the suburban variant of the steel Mk3 bodyshell, as later used in the 318/9, 320/1/2, 150 and 455.

I'm not sure what differences there are in the drive systems though, O L Leigh or someone else will...

*They have much flatter roofs than usual, with no pantograph well, and the sides are quite tapered. This helps the 313s fit down to Moorgate (and the 50x in Liverpool maybe?). The 455/7s (with a PEP trailer in an otherwise Mk3 unit) show the shape difference quite clearly.

EDIT: Beaten to it by one more person than above!

 

[slick]

315s have had alot done to them despite their ageing appearance. From a drivers perspective 315s being geared for 75mph are great off the mark up to about 40mph after which they say no thanks ive had enough up to 75. They have a better wheelslip/slide system than the 317s. And do a good job when the wheels lock under braking. Getting away from a stand they perform well in low adhesion due to the 8 motors per unit, 4 on each dms cars. Everything you do in them feels very deliberate and direct. They rarely suffer from failures, mostly heating and doors and are easily fixed. My only gripe is there can be a huge gap between a bad unit and a good unit, the fleet is far from uniform from a performance perspective.

317s are slow off the mark but between 40 - 70 they pull with purpose. The wsp racks are awful and you often get wsp activity in dry conditions. Pulling away in anything other than perfect weather is a nightmare mainly due to th motors being lumped on the PMOS coach. I usually lay brighton beach in low adhesion. They seem to suffer a lot with motor and electronics failures/faults and doors often stick especially in the cold. They are certainly more comfortable from a passenger perspective and have a nice smooth ride, except in summer when those tiny slits above the windows used for ventalation usually boil my passengers alive. Id be intrested to know if FCCs 317s are any better.

 

[DXMachina]

Assuming a 315 is like a 313 which I know from Watford-Euston - they're colder, noisier, harder seats, less headroom, worse ride, than a 317

Mk3 EMUs are a good place to be as a passenger.

 

[samuelmorris]

This is pretty much a given but the power car of the 317 I find far noisier than that of a 315, partly because of the much larger traction motors, but also sharing the same car with the transformer - which seem exceptionally loud on some units in the Mk 3 classes. All of this is also true of 319s and 321s.
Also, the lower line speed surely helps, but I'd feel less worried about taking someone of a nervous disposition or with a heart condition on a 315 than a 317/319/321 etc. It doesn't take too much to startle me and the sudden bang when a unit passes a Mk 3 EMU makes standing near the doorway on one a pretty embarrassing experience. I'm really hoping this trait is rectified on the refurbished 321s, whenever they appear, if they appear.

 

[jopsuk]

The designs are very different- 315s have two motor coaches, a trailer car and a pantograph trailer car (which does have a shallow pantograph well, as do 313s and 315s), whilst the 317s have all the motors on the pantograph car.

 

[anthony263]

If the class 315's are reduced to three carriages before they start work in south wales I think they will be faster off the mark than they are now.

I agree with the point raised about performance. I have used class 315's and you can see a notable differance in performance between different units. I have been on one of the refurbished class 315's which has tried to pull away quickly but is struggling because the other units it is attached to isnt accelerating as quickly.

Mind you this sort of thing happens with the class 150 fleet, some of ATW's class 150's accelerate really quickly while one or two others are sluggish

 

[ChristopherJ]

315's are bullet proof little units and 317's are big heaps of cr*p!

Couldn't of put it better myself. A 315 is the railway equivilant of a cockroach - they'll survive anything even up to a nuclear war.

I travel on a mix of 315s and 317s daily on the Lea Valley Lines and from a personal perspective I perfer a 315: they're far more airy, light and comfortable than a 317 which are tatty, rackety, noisy heaps of utter crap!

Ever had the pleasure of a 317 up the Chingford branch on the last 01:03 from Liv St with half motors in the rain? Either get out and push or walk home were sensible suggestions... Slip, bang, slip, bang, slip, bang, slip - and that was before we even managed to restart away from Wood Street uphill to Highams Park.

Regardless of these differences both types are severely overdue a full internal and electrical refurbishment.

 

[D365]

Couldn't of put it better myself. A 315 is the railway equivilant of a cockroach - they'll survive anything even up to a nuclear war.

Or a [pre-Microsoft] Nokia?

Regardless of these differences both types are severely overdue a full internal and electrical refurbishment.

A rebuild is definitely in the pipeline for the 317 class - see the 317722 demonstrator unit.

 

[jon0844]

Has anyone actually seen it?

 

[jopsuk]

it's even more elusive than the 321 demonstrator

 

[D365]

By 'see 317722' I didn't actually mean 'see it' - all I know is that it is (EDIT: or was, might well have gone out for testing) buried deep inside the vast and treacherous caverns of Ilford TMD... As that's where they're supposed to be doing (or have done) the initial rebuild, or so I heard.

 

[badassunicorn]

I don't think its at Ilford EMUD anymore, it was there for ages but from what I've heard its gone somewhere for testing and was hauled away by an engine. I did get a look at the two coaches that were done up, and its basically just like a SWT 455 inside, the vestibules are opened up and new seating is in there and slidey door toilet
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
and Ilford's not so treacherous, well, not ALL the time =P

 

[rebmcr]

Or a [pre-Microsoft] Nokia?

I've dropped my Lumia from waist height onto tarmac, corner first and then a glass-down slide.

They're still indestructible.

 

[MK Tom]

The big problem I have with the 313/315 family is the seating arrangement. The seats are half way along the window so nobody gets a decent view. But they ride well enough. Having had ample experience of 319s and 321s I'd say the Mark 3 classes like the 317s have a lot of irritating features; windows slamming shut in tunnels, doors banging in frames, excessive sideways wobble and loud noises when stationary spring to mind. Still you have to love the traction motor sound.

I've dropped my Lumia from waist height onto tarmac, corner first and then a glass-down slide.

They're still indestructible.

I dropped mine in a glass of water. Still works a treat.

 

[samuelmorris]

Loud noises when stationary? I'd only say the 319s have this. In the non-transformer car on a 321 when stationary it's dead silent most of the time. Eerily silent, especially if you're at a stand between stations, in the dark

 

[87015]

By 'see 317722' I didn't actually mean 'see it' - all I know is that it is (EDIT: or was, might well have gone out for testing) buried deep inside the vast and treacherous caverns of Ilford TMD... As that's where they're supposed to be doing (or have done) the initial rebuild, or so I heard.

There is at least some sign of life in the 317 as they are hawking around for possession opportunities to do testing with it for next year...

 

[bronzeonion]

The Class 315+all PEPs seem to be the last properly designed thought through train built by BR and has good acceleration, wide doorways (even though they decided on 2 rather than 3), lightweight aluminium body and what must be good brakes judging by the speed they come into Stratford! The seating arrangement isn't the best I must admit and neither are the seats but at the time, when trains were not quite as busy as they are now it was probably alright.

The Class 317+all other MK3 based EMU's seem to be a cheap and cheerful attempt of a commuter train on a budget using the bodyshell of an express carriage. With one motor car meaning wheelslip problems and slow acceleration, doorways that are just the bit too narrow to fit 2 people side by side through, a terrible seating arrangement as well as windows beig too high up and the seats too low!

 

[HSTEd]

Both units are credible units that show the ethos of British Rail.

Cheap as possible but still serving far beyond its design life regardless.

 

[zn1]

the main difference between 313-315, 507-508 and the 317-321(455-456) fleets...

the 313s and her sister squadrons - built for inner suburban use. fast getaways and good stopping power.hence the 8 traction motors, High density interiors, no toilets..max speed 75mph, also fitted with rheostatic braking, Girling WSP equipment

317-322 (inc 325 royal mailers as they are MK3 emu) outer suburban use - lower speed take offs, good cruising speeds, good braking power from speed. Toilets fitted, max speed 100mph (although could and can go hell of alot faster) Four traction motors of 250 hp each - (1000HP), girling WSP equipment fitted.

i have included 325 as they have the same speed as their passenger sisters, have the same power supply equipment as 319 - and were built to be converted to passenger use if no longer needed..

also note that NONE of the classes were originally fitted with SANDERS, these were a later fitting..

to be corrected here but im sure that 310/312 didnt have sanding equipment fitment

thats the fleets in a nutshell

 

[jopsuk]

Were there driver union objections to the 317/455 cab design? Or was there another reason that all the other classes in that family lacked the corridor connector? it would presumably have met the emergency escape requirments that led to the 319s having a door in the front of the cab.

 

[306024]

......the vast and treacherous caverns of Ilford TMD....

Well I'll have to take a minder with me next time I'm there.

Can only agree with what others have said. Despite the 315s replacing the best EMU ever () they have proved to be solid workhorses. The Liverpool St - Shenfield service may not be the most exciting route but it is very reliable in my experience.

317s however, not at all suitable for the WA inner suburban work they have to do, but there's nothing else.

 

[O L Leigh]

317s however, not at all suitable for the WA inner suburban work they have to do, but there's nothing else.

Myth.

Cl317s can keep to Cl315 timings and vice versa. They may not load as quickly due to the doors being (only fractionally) narrower and having their acceleration being blunted slightly due to being geared for 100mph maximum speed, but they perform broadly similarly because they are more powerful than Cl315s. Yes they slip, but so do Cl315s. Likewise both classes are equally useless if a fault knocks them down to half power.

O L Leigh

 

[306024]

I was simply quoting what your fellow drivers tell me. They can't all be wrong, or maybe they are? Yes they are timed the same as 315s but with the number of stops on an all stations Cheshunt or Enfield service the station dwell times are critical in the peak - the narrower doors don't help.

 

[MK Tom]

Loud noises when stationary? I'd only say the 319s have this. In the non-transformer car on a 321 when stationary it's dead silent most of the time. Eerily silent, especially if you're at a stand between stations, in the dark

Can someone with technical knowledge tell me why 321s make these noises when standing still... ok I'll try to type this:

bong. ... bong. ... bong. ... bong. ... bong. ... burbububububububububuubububuuuuu bong. ... bong. bong...

Anyone?