Class 319 Northern departure

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Those two classes are both slow, and Glasgow's 318s and 320s aren't too far behind, but Northern's 319s are something else. They definitely seem to be even slower than in their Thameslink days, and they were slouches then!

Yes agreed.

 

[childwallblues]

The cushions themselves aren't bad, it's the low seating position.



That's funny, both of the Allerton drivers I know can't stand them. Anyway, trains are operated for paying customers, of which I doubt you'll find very many who think the slow, uncomfortable and noisy 319s are better than the 323s.

The big problem could be in what state are WMT 323s that are coming north after 30 years of cross city duties. My experience of them in the summer was not good.

 

[Mamorin]

The WMT 323s won a silver spanner award this year, so the WMT sets should be in good condition for their age.

Just to add the WMT sets did work out of Bletchley at one point, just a little fact some people may not be aware of.

Before 323208 left for Northern a maintenance check was done on the unit, given Soho is currently a 323 only depot the WMT sets will be in good condition when they transfer.

 

[Liam L]

The WMT 323s won a silver spanner award this year, so the WMT sets should be in good condition for their age.

Just to add the WMT sets did work out of Bletchley at one point, just a little fact some people may not be aware of.

Before 323208 left for Northern a maintenance check was done on the unit, given Soho is currently a 323 only depot the WMT sets will be in good condition when they transfer.

Didn't they leave Bletchley at the end of the 90s? Does anyone remember the reason they was allocated down there in the first place? Must of been quite alot of dead mileage to / from Birmingham for maintence etc.

 

[Bevan Price]

Aside from the traction motor noise, I can't say I'll miss the 319s. The seats and legroom aren't very good and for an EMU, they're dreadfully slow. I think my washing machine probably has better acceleration across the kitchen floor, and Whirlpool appliances aren't really known for their sporting credentials. While the 323s aren't perfect, they're absolutely leagues better than the 319s, in my view.

Having endured Pacers for over 30 years on local services, the 319s felt like the height of luxury, only fault is the seats are a bit too low. Acceleration is not brilliant, but some drivers manage to get better performance than others. What I will most is the better seating capacity than even the 4 coach 331/1s.

 

[Mamorin]

Didn't they leave Bletchley at the end of the 90s? Does anyone remember the reason they was allocated down there in the first place? Must of been quite alot of dead mileage to / from Birmingham for maintence etc.

Don't know when they left Bletchley my guess would be when the 310s and 312s were withdrawn which was early 00s.

I think the 323s also did some work around Birmingham International in the mid-late 00s back when the 323s had the TVs on.

When the 323s first entered service they weren't very reliable and so the 323s shared the Cross City line with older EMUs, so my guess is the 323s were allocated to Bletchley due to their unreliability and the lack of space at Soho.

Somebody correct me on any of this if I'm wrong.

 

[childwallblues]

Don't know when they left Bletchley my guess would be when the 310s and 312s were withdrawn which was early 00s.

I think the 323s also did some work around Birmingham International in the mid-late 00s back when the 323s had the TVs on.

When the 323s first entered service they weren't very reliable and so the 323s shared the Cross City line with older EMUs, so my guess is the 323s were allocated to Bletchley due to their unreliability and the lack of space at Soho.

Somebody correct me on any of this if I'm wrong.

We used to get 323s in Lime Street when the service was diesel SSD-LIV. I think the 323s were mainly substitutes for late running diesels although there was a Four Oaks to Lime Street service which returned at 1708 to New Street.

 

[stottyuk]

Word of advice for anyone going out for Northern 319s this week - wrap up warm!

Apart from the pan carriage on 319372 which was toasty, most if not all have been like fridges

 

[jonesy3001]

I take it this week's scrap movement has been cancelled?

 

[GhostManDN91]

The class 769s with Northern have been the same too.

Word of advice for anyone going out for Northern 319s this week - wrap up warm!

Apart from the pan carriage on 319372 which was toasty, most if not all have been like fridges

 

[skyhigh]

The class 769s with Northern have been the same too.

Not for much longer. They're all undergoing a testing/repair programme - repairing the fault takes quite a long time (seats and floor need to come out and faulty wiring replaced) and is labour heavy which is why it hasn't happened on 319s or before now on 769s. You'd have thought it would have been done during the conversion but...

 

[pharrc20]

I don't know if this is any use but information from a N driver friend today:
Changes on 23/12 - all the 319's are being withdrawn. 9 x 331/0 into service at Leeds, extra 4 x 769's (Northern: probably ex-store) into service and all the 331/1's into service at Allerton.

HTH Paul

 

[pokemonsuper9]

extra 4 x 769's (Northern: probably ex-store) into service

4 769s are running today, surely they don't expect 100% availability from a fleet of 8.

 

[pharrc20]

4 769s are running today, surely they don't expect 100% availability from a fleet of 8.

Not sure I can ask to clarify though.

 

[jonesy3001]

I don't know if this is any use but information from a N driver friend today:
Changes on 23/12 - all the 319's are being withdrawn. 9 x 331/0 into service at Leeds, extra 4 x 769's (Northern: probably ex-store) into service and all the 331/1's into service at Allerton.

HTH Paul

The 769s that are in Kilmarnock?

 

[pharrc20]

The 769s that are in Kilmarnock?

I have asked for clarification and will post when I know cheers

 

[3973EXL]

Realtime Trains | 5Q76 0828 Allerton Depot to Newport Docks (Simsgroup) | 08/12/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Q76 0828 departure from Allerton Depot to Newport Docks (Simsgroup) on 08/12/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[D7666]

Word of advice for anyone going out for Northern 319s this week - wrap up warm!

Apart from the pan carriage on 319372 which was toasty, most if not all have been like fridges

No different to my ~25 years of commuting on the things on Thameslink then.

Commuting on them from Luton I used to have 3 mini lists in my mobile :

those with loud motors - dynamic list
those with Brecknell Willis c.f. Stone Faiveley pans - not static, did not remain 'as built' despite what web sources and writers will tell you
those with knackered heating - and a couple of them went year on year without ever being fixed

 

[Bikeman78]

No different to my ~25 years of commuting on the things on Thameslink then.

Commuting on them from Luton I used to have 3 mini lists in my mobile :

those with loud motors - dynamic list
those with Brecknell Willis c.f. Stone Faiveley pans - not static, did not remain 'as built' despite what web sources and writers will tell you
those with knackered heating - and a couple of them went year on year without ever being fixed

The 20 Connex units were especially dire. Is there a reason why 319s seemed to be worse than 317s or 321s?

 

[D7666]

Is there a reason why 319s seemed to be worse than 317s or 321s?

I don't have enough regular travel on 317s or 321s that equates with my 319s commuting. 317s (317/3s) were still the squadron fleet when I moved to Luton, but not for long and not enough travel on them then, and no such high use since, to be able to comment. 321s never been regular user of.

Any regular commuters (i.e. not occasional travellers happening to pick a cold unit at random) from north of Hadrians Wall comment on 318 and 320 heating ?

 

[47434]

I don't know if this is any use but information from a N driver friend today:
Changes on 23/12 - all the 319's are being withdrawn. 9 x 331/0 into service at Leeds, extra 4 x 769's (Northern: probably ex-store) into service and all the 331/1's into service at Allerton.

HTH Paul

Not taking any more 769's despite plenty available.

 

[david l]

4 769s are running today, surely they don't expect 100% availability from a fleet of 8.

Actually 5 started the day, but 1 pulled up lame fairly early in the day (door fault). Originally upon conversion there were 6 out of the 8 diagrammed Mon-Sat (nothing Sun) but this has been very rarely achieved, and very rarely all day. Diagrams were reduced to 4 out of the 8 earlier this year, but even this has not been regularly achieved, including 0 on a number of occasions!! The intention was (is?) that the diagrams will go back to 6 once the current mods (digital but now apparently including heating and other stuff) are complete.
Today there are 3 in service, this means that as usual NH has to supply several 150/156's to cover but very often these have been 2 car short form replacements.

 

[Jamesrob637]

I don't know if this is any use but information from a N driver friend today:
Changes on 23/12 - all the 319's are being withdrawn. 9 x 331/0 into service at Leeds, extra 4 x 769's (Northern: probably ex-store) into service and all the 331/1's into service at Allerton.

HTH Paul

A slightly better picture overall for Liverpool commuters. Slightly worse for Manchester with 4-car vice 6, only temporarily though.

 

[Bikeman78]

I don't have enough regular travel on 317s or 321s that equates with my 319s commuting. 317s (317/3s) were still the squadron fleet when I moved to Luton, but not for long and not enough travel on them then, and no such high use since, to be able to comment. 321s never been regular user of.

Any regular commuters (i.e. not occasional travellers happening to pick a cold unit at random) from north of Hadrians Wall comment on 318 and 320 heating ?

I did thousands of miles on 317s in their last three years. The only cold one I can recall was 317501 which was an ice box for most of winter 2021/22. The 318s and 320s don't stand out as being cold.

I'll be honest; I've never really liked the 319s. I was 10 when I first went on one and I wasn't impressed. The Connex era simply cemented that view, though that's probably unfair because Connex was incapable of keeping any of it's trains in good working order.

 

[Bob Price]

319383 and 384 are on their way to Newport today being hauled on 5Q76. 37800 in charge.

Looking at the diagrams it seems to have some problems and have moved into Allerton depot. Flagged up as having brake problems.

 

[warwickshire]

319383 and 384 are on their way to Newport today being hauled on 5Q76. 37800 in charge.

Looking at the diagrams it seems to have some problems and have moved into Allerton depot. Flagged up as having brake problems.

Wondering out of curiosity maybe 319383 is the culprit, hasn't ran for a while, meanwhile last week's move ran with 37800 and 319378 and 319383 was also booked to go with it, but at least it ran From Allerton

 

[Jamesrob637]

So the loco went back to Derby rather than remaining at Allerton overnight or over the weekend?

 

[Class15]

So the loco went back to Derby rather than remaining at Allerton overnight or over the weekend?

It needs repairs occasionally presumably.

 

[50032]

Saturday 9th December (as far as I can see at 04:00):

319381 AN221

AllrtnDep 05+24 5F68FN
Lime St 05+38 06.16 2F50FA
Wigan NW 07.03 07.21 2C04FA
Lime St 08.16 08.44 2F60FA
Wigan NW 09.32 09.53 2C09FA
Lime St 10.43 11.15 2F50FB
Wigan NW 12.04 12.21 2C14FA
Lime St 13.09 13.45 2F60FB
Wigan NW 14.32 14.52 2C19FA
Lime St 15.43 16.15 2F50FC
Wigan NW 17.06 17.21 2C24FA
Lime St 18.09 18.31 2W91FA
Wigan NW 19.30 19+45 5W91FC
Springs B 19+58

319361 AN225

Springs B 05+03 5C00FA
Wigan NW 05+18 05.35 2C00FA
Lime St 06.24 06.38 1N80FA
BlckpoolN 07.57 08.03 2C07FC
Lime St 09.43 10.15 2F66FA
Wigan NW 11.03 11.21 2C12FA
Lime St 12.09 12.45 2F56FB
Wigan NW 13.32 13.53 2C17FA
Lime St 14.43 15.15 2F66FB
Wigan NW 16.04 16.21 2C22FA
Lime St 17.12 17.45 2F56FC
Wigan NW 18.32 18.52 2C27FA
Lime St 19.43 20.16 2F68FC
Wigan NW 21.04 21.21 2C32FA
Lime St 22.10 23.20 2V93FN
Mancr Vic 00.18 00+23 5A99FN
ManVicRSg 00+26

319366 AN229

Mancr Air 05.32 2F13FA
Lime St 06.53 07.28 2V91FN
Mancr Vic 08.26 08.32 2F23FA
Lime St 09.28 09+36 5Y23FE
AllrtnDep 09+52

319385 AN230

AllrtnDep 05+24 5F68FN
Lime St 05+38 05.46 2F68FN
Wigan NW 06.32 06.52 2C03FA
Lime St 07.43 08.17 2F58FA
Wigan NW 09.03 09.21 2C08FA
Lime St 10.09 10.45 2F68FA
Wigan NW 11.32 11.52 2C13FA
Lime St 12.43 13.15 2F58FB
Wigan NW 14.04 14.21 2C18FA
Lime St 15.09 15.45 2F68FB
Wigan NW 16.33 16.54 2C23FA
Lime St 17.43 18.13 2F60FC
Wigan NW 19.03 19.21 2C28FA
Lime St 20.09 20.45 2F50FT
Wigan NW 21.33 22.07 2C33FA
Lime St 22.56 23.15 1N87FB
Preston 00.23 00+34 5N87FB
PrstnCtSS 00+48

319369 AN231

Springs B 05+03 5C00FA
Wigan NW 05+18 05.52 2C01FA
Lime St 06.42 07.15 2F54FA
Wigan NW 08.03 08.21 2C06FA
Lime St 09.12 09.45 2F64FA
Wigan NW 10.32 10.52 2C11FA
Lime St 11.43 12.15 2F54FB
Wigan NW 13.04 13.21 2C16FA
Lime St 14.09 14.45 2F64FB
Wigan NW 15.32 15.53 2C21FA
Lime St 16.43 17.13 2F54FC
Wigan NW 18.00 18.21 2C26FA
Lime St 19.09 19.44 2F66FC
Wigan NW 20.32 20.52 2C31FA
Lime St 21.40 22.15 1N86FB
BlckpoolN 23.47 23+57 5N86FE
BlckplNCS 00+02

319372 AN232

ManVicRSg 05+21 5F11FN
Mancr Vic 05+24 05.30 2F11FN
Lime St 06.21 06.45 2F52FA
Wigan NW 07.33 07.52 2C05FA
Lime St 08.43 09.14 2F62FA
Wigan NW 10.04 10.21 2C10FA
Lime St 11.08 11.45 2F52FB
Wigan NW 12.32 12.53 2C15FA
Lime St 13.43 14.15 2F62FB
Wigan NW 15.03 15.21 2C20FA
Lime St 16.08 16.45 2F52FC
Wigan NW 17.32 17.38 2C25FA
Lime St 18.21 19.14 2F64FC
Wigan NW 20.04 20.21 2C30FA
Lime St 21.10 21+26 5Y30FN
AllrtnDep 21+42

Note: Northern has confirmed in an internal memo that 319s will continue to be used on an ad hoc basis until the 331 swaps are complete, so today isn't the final day afterall. Don't expect them to tell us when the final workings will be though!

 

[GhostManDN91]

Saturday 9th December (as far as I can see at 04:00):

319381 AN221

AllrtnDep 05+24 5F68FN
Lime St 05+38 06.16 2F50FA
Wigan NW 07.03 07.21 2C04FA
Lime St 08.16 08.44 2F60FA
Wigan NW 09.32 09.53 2C09FA
Lime St 10.43 11.15 2F50FB
Wigan NW 12.04 12.21 2C14FA
Lime St 13.09 13.45 2F60FB
Wigan NW 14.32 14.52 2C19FA
Lime St 15.43 16.15 2F50FC
Wigan NW 17.06 17.21 2C24FA
Lime St 18.09 18.31 2W91FA
Wigan NW 19.30 19+45 5W91FC
Springs B 19+58

319361 AN225

Springs B 05+03 5C00FA
Wigan NW 05+18 05.35 2C00FA
Lime St 06.24 06.38 1N80FA
BlckpoolN 07.57 08.03 2C07FC
Lime St 09.43 10.15 2F66FA
Wigan NW 11.03 11.21 2C12FA
Lime St 12.09 12.45 2F56FB
Wigan NW 13.32 13.53 2C17FA
Lime St 14.43 15.15 2F66FB
Wigan NW 16.04 16.21 2C22FA
Lime St 17.12 17.45 2F56FC
Wigan NW 18.32 18.52 2C27FA
Lime St 19.43 20.16 2F68FC
Wigan NW 21.04 21.21 2C32FA
Lime St 22.10 23.20 2V93FN
Mancr Vic 00.18 00+23 5A99FN
ManVicRSg 00+26

319366 AN229

Mancr Air 05.32 2F13FA
Lime St 06.53 07.28 2V91FN
Mancr Vic 08.26 08.32 2F23FA
Lime St 09.28 09+36 5Y23FE
AllrtnDep 09+52

319385 AN230

AllrtnDep 05+24 5F68FN
Lime St 05+38 05.46 2F68FN
Wigan NW 06.32 06.52 2C03FA
Lime St 07.43 08.17 2F58FA
Wigan NW 09.03 09.21 2C08FA
Lime St 10.09 10.45 2F68FA
Wigan NW 11.32 11.52 2C13FA
Lime St 12.43 13.15 2F58FB
Wigan NW 14.04 14.21 2C18FA
Lime St 15.09 15.45 2F68FB
Wigan NW 16.33 16.54 2C23FA
Lime St 17.43 18.13 2F60FC
Wigan NW 19.03 19.21 2C28FA
Lime St 20.09 20.45 2F50FT
Wigan NW 21.33 22.07 2C33FA
Lime St 22.56 23.15 1N87FB
Preston 00.23 00+34 5N87FB
PrstnCtSS 00+48

319369 AN231

Springs B 05+03 5C00FA
Wigan NW 05+18 05.52 2C01FA
Lime St 06.42 07.15 2F54FA
Wigan NW 08.03 08.21 2C06FA
Lime St 09.12 09.45 2F64FA
Wigan NW 10.32 10.52 2C11FA
Lime St 11.43 12.15 2F54FB
Wigan NW 13.04 13.21 2C16FA
Lime St 14.09 14.45 2F64FB
Wigan NW 15.32 15.53 2C21FA
Lime St 16.43 17.13 2F54FC
Wigan NW 18.00 18.21 2C26FA
Lime St 19.09 19.44 2F66FC
Wigan NW 20.32 20.52 2C31FA
Lime St 21.40 22.15 1N86FB
BlckpoolN 23.47 23+57 5N86FE
BlckplNCS 00+02

319372 AN232

ManVicRSg 05+21 5F11FN
Mancr Vic 05+24 05.30 2F11FN
Lime St 06.21 06.45 2F52FA
Wigan NW 07.33 07.52 2C05FA
Lime St 08.43 09.14 2F62FA
Wigan NW 10.04 10.21 2C10FA
Lime St 11.08 11.45 2F52FB
Wigan NW 12.32 12.53 2C15FA
Lime St 13.43 14.15 2F62FB
Wigan NW 15.03 15.21 2C20FA
Lime St 16.08 16.45 2F52FC
Wigan NW 17.32 17.38 2C25FA
Lime St 18.21 19.14 2F64FC
Wigan NW 20.04 20.21 2C30FA
Lime St 21.10 21+26 5Y30FN
AllrtnDep 21+42

Note: Northern has confirmed in an internal memo that 319s will continue to be used on an ad hoc basis until the 331 swaps are complete, so today isn't the final day afterall. Don't expect them to tell us when the final workings will be though!

Apologies but what does the term ad hoc mean? Never heard that before.