Class 323’s in the Central Trains era

[AJS90]

Today, the Birmingham Cross City line is an all 6 car Class 323 affair. But this wasn’t the case pre Covid when a majority of diagrams on the old 6tph service were only 3 car.

Going further back to the early 2000’s, I’m wondering how many 3 & 6 car diagrams there were.

My thinking is that between the last of the 310’s being withdrawn in 2000 and the first of the 350’s arriving in 2004, 323’s were needed on the Birmingham to Wolverhampton, Coventry and Walsall local services as well as their usual duties on the Cross City line. With only 26 units available, I imagine there would have been hardly any left over to strengthen services on the Cross City line.

Was there a time 20 years ago when all or almost all Cross City diagrams were only 3 car?

And were there any other services the CT 323’s regularly operated back then? I believe Birmingham - Liverpool was largely 170 operated under the wires, but I was thinking of maybe the Trent Valley locals and the Stafford - Stoke shuttle in its final years?

 

[JonathanH]

I was thinking of maybe the Trent Valley locals and the Stafford - Stoke shuttle in its final years?

They tended to be 153s because that was all that was needed and some of the Trent Valley locals worked through to Coventry.

Central Trains 323s definitely worked to Liverpool before the Birmingham to Liverpool service was joined up to the Birmingham to Stansted service, at which point 158s and 170s took over.

 

[warwickshire]

Today, the Birmingham Cross City line is an all 6 car Class 323 affair. But this wasn’t the case pre Covid when a majority of diagrams on the old 6tph service were only 3 car.

Going further back to the early 2000’s, I’m wondering how many 3 & 6 car diagrams there were.

My thinking is that between the last of the 310’s being withdrawn in 2000 and the first of the 350’s arriving in 2004, 323’s were needed on the Birmingham to Wolverhampton, Coventry and Walsall local services as well as their usual duties on the Cross City line. With only 26 units available, I imagine there would have been hardly any left over to strengthen services on the Cross City line.

Was there a time 20 years ago when all or almost all Cross City diagrams were only 3 car?

And were there any other services the CT 323’s regularly operated back then? I believe Birmingham - Liverpool was largely 170 operated under the wires, but I was thinking of maybe the Trent Valley locals and the Stafford - Stoke shuttle in its final years?

Yes 323 as well around 2000 to 2002. Also substituted between Birmingham New street and Liverpool Lime Street quite often on the Stansted to Liverpool Lime Street and did have Stansted Airport on the destination blinds.
However quite right a class 323 was on the Stafford to Stoke shuttles remember it well at Stoke on Trent when first north western had its own pacer, 305, 150 substitutes vice 323 on its Stoke on Trent services. Remember 2 323 diagrams one a peak am circuit Wolverhampton to Stoke. Then to Birmingham New Street. Other one was a bizarre Northampton to Stoke on Trent one way am peak service then it did Stoke on Trent to Stafford. all day. Then 323 finished late evening around 1030pm ish at Wolverhampton.
Worked by Wolverhampton train crew a newly formed central trains depot. Back then. Which displaced Birmingham New Street from the work and replaced the class 310s also. However for some time after 2004 approximately I believe buses replaced the service until the 350s took over. However more interesting at the same time there was another 323 working a am peak diagram from Northampton to Birmingham New Street only. Until it in return got replaced by a shared service Silverlink Central Trains 321. Which also got replaced by a Class 350.

 

[Bonemaster]

323s in the early years were far from rare on Northmapton - Birmingham New Street Services. There was a Trent Valley service that would terminate at Rugby on a weekday evening certainly in the early 2000s. Stafford - Stoke local services were also a 323 from memory in addition to Birmingham - Liverpool services.

Also add in the Coventry - Wolverhampton locals and the Birmingham - Walsall services as well as 323 regular services in the early years

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Stafford-Stoke locals were certainly 323 operated initially after the 310s had been retired (themselves replacing the venerable 304 in 1995!) but I seem to recall they were fairly soon replaced themselves by a 153. Presumably it was (rightly) decided that a 3-car high density 90mph EMU was wasted on a 2-hourly shuttle that carried less than 10 pax on most trips, and the lowest tier resource was adequate. Hence why later it became a bus, then ticket acceptance on a local bus route, then withdrawn.

 

[AJS90]

Thanks for the help.

Does anyone know how many diagrams there were on the Cross City back then? An educated guess would say 11, but I’m not sure how many were strengthened to 6 car and how many peak extras there were.

I’m also guessing there were 5 on the Wolves - Coventry locals, 1 on the Stafford - Stoke shuttle and 3 on the Walsall line. I’m fairly sure only 2 EMU’s were used on the Walsall line at peak times as 1 unit was replaced with 2 DMU’s so 1 tph could be extended to Hednesford or Rugeley. This would free up a 323 for Cross City peak extras.

 

[warwickshire]

323s in the early years were far from rare on Northmapton - Birmingham New Street Services. There was a Trent Valley service that would terminate at Rugby on a weekday evening certainly in the early 2000s. Stafford - Stoke local services were also a 323 from memory in addition to Birmingham - Liverpool services.

Also add in the Coventry - Wolverhampton locals and the Birmingham - Walsall services as well as 323 regular services in the early years

I can most certainly remember two booked diagrams in the morning from Northampton one to Birmingham New Street and another to Stoke for the all day shuttle to Stafford. Also from memory Walsall did go to New Street but got extended to the Airport. Some cross city line services only did Four Oaks to Longbridge 4 car services also.
Also sometimes the Walsall to Wolverhampton shuttle was a 323 no 153. Also the Trent valley shuttle initially was both either a 323 or 153.
However does reinstate my memory. Now because the evening 153 and 323 did swap at Stoke on Trent. Because the 153 did go back to Birmingham.
With the 323 swapping onto the trent valley terminating at Rugby. Then with it
staying overnight at Rugby. Before Working Rugby to Northampton in the very early following next day morning. Then forming one of the am peak services from Northampton in the morning. However Saturdays the 153 remained on the Trent. But 323 did terminate late on at Wolverhampton. Again on a Saturday.

 

[365 Networker]

The 323s also used to operate the Birmingham New Street - International shuttle service - this only stopped in 2018 when electric services to Bromsgrove commenced. I beleive there is still a 323 service to Coventry late at night, although this may have changed.

 

[Bald Rick]

Was there a time 20 years ago when all or almost all Cross City diagrams were only 3 car?

Going back to when I used it in the late 90s, there was one, possibly two, peak services in each direction that were 6 car, everything else was 3.

 

[Bevan Price]

If they were short of 323s, it was not unknown for a 2 coach Class 150 to be used on Birmingham / Liverpool services -- and at least once, a pair of 153s was used.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

As an interesting aside, there were a couple of GMPTE 323 diagrams that also made it into Centro territory - an early AM Stafford-Manchester Piccadilly stopper, and an evening service from Manchester Airport to Birmingham International. Both occasionally produced unusual traction, including (in my personal experience) a 101, 305 or 309 on the morning service. Never saw it produce a pacer although they did regularly make it down to Stoke on the peak stoppers.

310 102 at Stafford on 1st January 1999

Railway pictures from UK and Europe

mark5812.smugmug.com

Trawling through the web, this photo is interesting as it shows the Stoke local diagram (behind in Stafford P6-North) went over to 323 operation while there were still older 310 units on the Liverpool diagrams. This tallies with my memory, presumably the logic was that the oldest (304) stock was replaced at the earliest opportunity - by May 1995 - and stock reshuffles happened much later - this is 1999.

 

[Sprinter107]

I remember a GMPTE class 323 on the evening service to Birmingham New Street, I used to catch it from Stafford quite regularly back then, but im sure when it got to New Street, it returned north, but went back out via Aston.

 

[jfollows]

I remember a GMPTE class 323 on the evening service to Birmingham New Street, I used to catch it from Stafford quite regularly back then, but im sure when it got to New Street, it returned north, but went back out via Aston.

At one point this was an AM9 working, it used platform 1 at New Street and returned to Manchester via Aston and Bescot as you say, then Wolverhampton, Stafford and Crewe. I used it when I was returning to Manchester from Birmingham at the appropriate time, it was generally pretty empty compared to the cross-country services and was pretty fast, it usually had a good run between Stafford and Crewe on the down fast.

 

[Sprinter107]

At one point this was an AM9 working, it used platform 1 at New Street and returned to Manchester via Aston and Bescot as you say, then Wolverhampton, Stafford and Crewe. I used it when I was returning to Manchester from Birmingham at the appropriate time, it was generally pretty empty compared to the cross-country services and was pretty fast, it usually had a good run between Stafford and Crewe on the down fast.

Yes, thats it, it did used to use platform 1. It would come in from the Monument Lane end of the station and go straight along to platform 1A. It didn't wait long as I remember, it more or less went straight back.

 

[warwickshire]

As far as I am aware the evening gmpte 323 on the 1716 Manchester Piccadilly to Birmingham New Street service was initially used due to the 309 being booked on the PM evening service. Manchester Piccadilly to Stoke on Trent.
However due to a gmpte requirement mid 90s and more services on the Hadfield line the 323 was switched over for that purpose away from Birmingham. With 309s being used on both the am and pm services Manchester Piccadilly to Birmingham International. However when the 309s got withdrawn around 2000. For a very short while to around 2002 to 2003.
For two years or so the am Manchester Piccadilly to Birmingham International service did revert back to a gmpte 323 as a result.

 

[warwickshire]

Also between 1997 to around may 2000. Out of interest back in those days when it did happen ie hire in of stock and crew on behalf of other tocs especially on a Sunday. Sometimes on Birmingham New Street to Liverpool Lime Street and from Manchester Piccadilly to Birmingham New Street. You would also sometimes get a ct centro 323 on the former and a gmpte 323 on the latter. Ie
Hired in ie 323s with staff used from central trains and first north Western also covering as well due to route and traction knowledge as well.

 

[warwickshire]

Also between 1997 to around may 2000. Out of interest back in those days when it did happen ie hire in of stock and crew on behalf of other tocs especially on a Sunday. Sometimes on Birmingham New Street to Liverpool Lime Street and from Manchester Piccadilly to Birmingham New Street. You would also sometimes get a ct centro 323 on the former and a gmpte 323 on the latter. Ie
Hired in ie 323s with staff used from central trains and first north Western also covering as well due to route and traction knowledge as well.

Ie covering for services on behalf of cross country due to cross country staff shortages.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Aha that probably explains why I‘ve (mis)remembered it as a working to International then. A similar circular move was performed by some of the loco hauled Holyhead services I think, to avoid running round. (Off topic)

 

[ChiefPlanner]

323's of course , were initially maintained at Bletchley TMD ....

 

[43096]

323's of course , were initially maintained at Bletchley TMD ....

When did Soho take them on?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

When did Soho take them on?

About 1997 - when the depot was much enhanced. A good move really in terms of operational flexibilty. BY might not have agreed.

 

[warwickshire]

Also back in 1994 to 1995 when driver training began in the north west. On the 323s for regional railways north west drivers and guards at Manchester Piccadilly. Before the gmpte 323s entered service and became more based at Longsight. Centro 323207 was used for training runs from Longsight.
Hired in from regional railways central.
However it still provided in the Manchester area a green centro livered 323 running around.

 

[Liam L]

I beleive there is still a 323 service to Coventry late at night, although this may have changed.

Apparently that ended with the December TT change I believe

 

[365 Networker]

Apparently that ended with the December TT change I believe

Thanks for the info.