Class 331 at Stoke-on-Trent

[North-Valiant]

I've just seen a class 331 at Stoke-on-Trent at platform 3 scheduled to work the Stoke - Manchester Piccadilly service.

As I've never seen a 331 at Stoke before it's only ever been 323s, is this likely a one off or is it more frequent than I realize?

I would be more willing to travel with Northern i I knew that 331s are likely to be used

 

[Some guy]

There used to be until December timetable a direct Stoke on Trent to Blackpool north formed by a 331 but that’s the last time I heard them going that way. A lot of the 331s have been doubled up for the Manchester to Blackpool north services

 

[Thomas6187]

1 of the 3 diagrams is now booked as 331, with the other 2 being 323s. Also the morning/evening peak extra is also booked as a 331

 

[tom1649]

I've just seen a class 331 at Stoke-on-Trent at platform 3 scheduled to work the Stoke - Manchester Piccadilly service.

As I've never seen a 331 at Stoke before it's only ever been 323s, is this likely a one off or is it more frequent than I realize?

I would be more willing to travel with Northern i I knew that 331s are likely to be used

What's wrong with a 323? I find them a pleasure to travel on.

 

[jfollows]

I've just seen a class 331 at Stoke-on-Trent at platform 3 scheduled to work the Stoke - Manchester Piccadilly service.

As I've never seen a 331 at Stoke before it's only ever been 323s, is this likely a one off or is it more frequent than I realize?

I would be more willing to travel with Northern i I knew that 331s are likely to be used

Unit diagrams at https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/december-2022-timetable-changes.231835/page-61#post-5938036 will show you which types of unit are booked to work which services.

 

[artemic]

I've just seen a class 331 at Stoke-on-Trent at platform 3 scheduled to work the Stoke - Manchester Piccadilly service.

As I've never seen a 331 at Stoke before it's only ever been 323s, is this likely a one off or is it more frequent than I realize?

I would be more willing to travel with Northern i I knew that 331s are likely to be used

Since the December 2022 timetable change one in three workings have been a 331 on weekdays, as well as some morning and afternoon peak services.
They are certainly more fresh-faced than the 323s, but the peak runs are usually rammed full by about Bramhall [debatably as a result of fewer seats!]
They also have a habit of telling passengers that Poynton station is too short for a 3-car train...

On Saturdays only the first Northern off in the morning is a 331, and on Sundays there are none booked.

They will only ever be single 331/0 (3-car) as the /1s (4-car) or a double would not fit in the bay platform.
There were a few trials running them into the main station but they tend to get in the way, even shunting them off to a siding, so I wouldn't expect that to change without a rebuild of some kind.

 

[A0]

They will only ever be single 331/0 (3-car) as the /1s (4-car) or a double would not fit in the bay platform.
There were a few trials running them into the main station but they tend to get in the way, even shunting them off to a siding, so I wouldn't expect that to change without a rebuild of some kind.

That bay at Stoke is a bit limiting - and I'm not sure there any easy way to lengthen it.

The obvious is to look south of the station where there are a couple of (overgrown) sidings which a unit could stable in before running back into the northbound platform - problem is such a move blocks both lines.

Stoke's really not a great place to terminate a train - but I'm not sure there's anywhere much better until you get to Stafford.

 

[North-Valiant]

What's wrong with a 323? I find them a pleasure to travel on.

I find that the 45 mins-1 Hour I spend commuting to Manchester from Stoke is very productive so I like to have a table to use my laptop

Since the December 2022 timetable change one in three workings have been a 331 on weekdays, as well as some morning and afternoon peak services.
They are certainly more fresh-faced than the 323s, but the peak runs are usually rammed full by about Bramhall [debatably as a result of fewer seats!]
They also have a habit of telling passengers that Poynton station is too short for a 3-car train...

On Saturdays only the first Northern off in the morning is a 331, and on Sundays there are none booked.

They will only ever be single 331/0 (3-car) as the /1s (4-car) or a double would not fit in the bay platform.
There were a few trials running them into the main station but they tend to get in the way, even shunting them off to a siding, so I wouldn't expect that to change without a rebuild of some kind.

All trains are usually rammed full by Bramall, even the 323s.

Yes the Stoke bay platform isn't very long

 

[A0]

I find that the 45 mins-1 Hour I spend commuting to Manchester from Stoke is very productive so I like to have a table to use my laptop


All trains are usually rammed full by Bramall, even the 323s.

Yes the Stoke bay platform isn't very long

If you're that bothered about a table, why not use the Avanti or XC services between Manchester and Stoke - which are also quicker ?

 

[North-Valiant]

If you're that bothered about a table, why not use the Avanti or XC services between Manchester and Stoke - which are also quicker ?

That's what I currently do, but would rather use Northern because A) It's cheaper, B) I could get on at Kidsgrove C) Northern aren't owned by foreign governments

 

[_toommm_]

That's what I currently do, but would rather use Northern because A) It's cheaper, B) I could get on at Kidsgrove C) Northern aren't owned by foreign governments

Can’t you use your laptop for its namesake i.e. on your lap?

 

[NewClee153]

If you're that bothered about a table, why not use the Avanti or XC services between Manchester and Stoke - which are also quicker ?

For me, it’s a choice between tables on a 331 and comfortable seats + smooth ride quality on a 323.

I can’t lie, with the new 331 diagrams on the Stoke/Crewe - Manchester services, (for someone travelling from Birmingham), I’d rather just use CrossCountry and pay more, than save money, go via Stoke or Crewe and have an uncomfortable journey on a 331

 

[North-Valiant]

Can’t you use your laptop for its namesake i.e. on your lap?

I mean I could do I suppose

For me, it’s a choice between tables on a 331 and comfortable seats + smooth ride quality on a 323.

I can’t lie, with the new 331 diagrams on the Stoke/Crewe - Manchester services, (for someone travelling from Birmingham), I’d rather just use CrossCountry and pay more, than save money, go via Stoke or Crewe and have an uncomfortable journey on a 331

Can't say I've noticed 331s being that bad?

 

[NewClee153]

I mean I could do I suppose


Can't say I've noticed 331s being that bad?

Just my personal experience, of both 195 and 331s. Absolutely rapid acceleration, horrible bumpy ride quality and very uncomfortable seats

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Absolutely rapid acceleration,

Is that not a good thing, since it allows faster journeys?

 

[323235]

That bay at Stoke is a bit limiting - and I'm not sure there any easy way to lengthen it.

The obvious is to look south of the station where there are a couple of (overgrown) sidings which a unit could stable in before running back into the northbound platform - problem is such a move blocks both lines.

Stoke's really not a great place to terminate a train - but I'm not sure there's anywhere much better until you get to Stafford.

There is a turn back siding which Northern already use at the south side.

 

[Halish Railway]

There is a turn back siding which Northern already use at the south side.

But you need to factor in the faff of doing a check to make sure that no one is on the train for the ECS movement, not an ideal situation when a a long distance train may be due into the platform shortly after the arrival of the Northern stopper.

 

[artemic]

All trains are usually rammed full by Bramall, even the 323s.

Definitely, but I have noticed the 331s do fill up quicker (if anecdotally).

There is a turn back siding which Northern already use at the south side.

Northern don't use the turn back siding on service trains anymore AIUI, although I believe it was trialled when they were running double 323 sets on Sundays.
The two ECS movements that are in theory booked into it often don't use it at all, either turning back at Kidsgrove or in Stoke station which wouldn't be possible on the normal service diagrams.

 

[geoffk]

Yes the Stoke bay platform isn't very long

It's a while since I was at Stoke but would a 4-car train fit if the signal was moved back? I know that's not a cheap job. Would a 4x20m train fit, like a 350? (of course Northern doesn't have any).

 

[artemic]

It's a while since I was at Stoke but would a 4-car train fit if the signal was moved back? I know that's not a cheap job. Would a 4x20m train fit, like a 350? (of course Northern doesn't have any).

Based purely on the Sectional Appendix the platform is 88 metres long, which would in theory fit something like a 350 (would be interesting to see if this has ever occurred).
There is a set of trap points just past the signal at the end of the platform (as can be seen here) but presumably with enough will - and money! - these could be moved slightly further along...

A 331/1, at just under 95m, would need an extra six metres just to fit in the platform as it stands - which at a layman's glance there does appear to be room for.
That would certainly be a an exact fit though, and any extra distance currently available would be eliminated - both the 323s and 331/0s are ~70/71 metres which leaves them 15+ metres of slack.
To fit them in properly would almost certainly require the station building to be partially demolished, or relocation of some pointwork north of the station.

 

[scrapy]

Extending the bay at Stoke has been investigated and pretty much ruled out. It would need signalling, track layouts and crossovers completely changing north of the station. Would be tens of millions to do. If longer trains are regularly needed on the line, and disposal and shunting into the sidings to the south, cannot be incorporated into the timetable, then running through to Stafford would also be considered.

 

[40fan]

I am sure I travelled on 4 car class 304 units departing from Stoke platform 3 in the 1980s. Can anyone confirm this? or is it just my imagination.

I have occasionally been on 2x323 from Manchester, they ran into platform 1 at Stoke.

 

[jfollows]

I am sure I travelled on 4 car class 304 units departing from Stoke platform 3 in the 1980s. Can anyone confirm this? or is it just my imagination.

I have occasionally been on 2x323 from Manchester, they ran into platform 1 at Stoke.

77.32m for 4-car AM4 unit (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_304)

 

[southern442]

I am sure I travelled on 4 car class 304 units departing from Stoke platform 3 in the 1980s. Can anyone confirm this? or is it just my imagination.

304s had carriage lengths just under 20m as opposed to 24m for 323s and 331s.

 

[Halish Railway]

I am sure I travelled on 4 car class 304 units departing from Stoke platform 3 in the 1980s. Can anyone confirm this? or is it just my imagination.

I’d imagine that you remember correctly as a 304 would have just about been able to fit into platform 3, with both the platform and unit being 80m long.

In the days between electrification and the introduction of 323s, services that called at the intermediate stations between Stockport and Stoke would have continued onto Stafford and Birmingham to serve Wedgwood, Barlaston, Stone and Norton Bridge, removing the restrictions caused by the shortness of platform 3 at Stoke.

 

[Jamesrob637]

What's wrong with a 323? I find them a pleasure to travel on.

Not when it's high summer and the lack of air-conditioning makes them noisy at speed.

 

[py_megapixel]

Just my personal experience, of both 195 and 331s. Absolutely rapid acceleration, horrible bumpy ride quality and very uncomfortable seats

Really just goes to show how subjective these things are. I like the rapid acceleration and, while I wouldn't exactly want to do Aberdeen to Penzance on them, I have no issues with the seats (they are quite firm but shaped very comfortably). The ride quality is a legitimate criticism, but one that could equally be levelled at a 323!

I am sure I travelled on 4 car class 304 units departing from Stoke platform 3 in the 1980s. Can anyone confirm this? or is it just my imagination.

I think there's a photo somewhere on here of a 4-car 319 in the bay at Stoke, with the front cab almost touching the buffer stop to get the whole thing to fit in!

Edit: found it! https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/323s-vs-331s-on-northern.216217/post-5096263

I have occasionally been on 2x323 from Manchester, they ran into platform 1 at Stoke.

Yes, this now seems to be a reasonably common occurrence at the weekend, which on this line often seems to be busier than weekdays (excluding the main commuting times perhaps)

I will comment that, while a 323 has more seats, a 331 seems to do a better job of dealing with large crowds where many of the passengers will be standing.

 

[NewClee153]

Really just goes to show how subjective these things are. I like the rapid acceleration and, while I wouldn't exactly want to do Aberdeen to Penzance on them, I have no issues with the seats (they are quite firm but shaped very comfortably). The ride quality is a legitimate criticism, but one that could equally be levelled at a 323!

I love the rapid acceleration on the 195/331s, it’s one of their few receding qualities. I don’t think ride quality between the two is even comparable, CAF are known for their shoddy ride quality, I’ve never heard that levelled at the 323.

I’m convinced the 195/331 seats have some kind of metal bar in them where you would rest your back, because every time I ride one, I end up having to lean forward due to the pain it inflicts on my back, I wish I were being hyperbolic

 

[agbrs_Jack]

If there's one train that needs some help (6 car please!) it's the Saturday 21:46 Manchester to Stoke (last train to anywhere south of Macclesfield on a Saturday)

Had the 'pleasure' of it on Easter Saturday - came in late from Hadfield as a 6 car set, cue everyone piling on only to be told it's splitting to a single 3-car set.
Pictures attached show p5 before it came in as well as "boarding" (read: stampede) at MAN, with the quieter images being taken just after departing Macclesfield.

 

[py_megapixel]

If there's one train that needs some help (6 car please!) it's the Saturday 21:46 Manchester to Stoke (last train to anywhere south of Macclesfield on a Saturday)

Had the 'pleasure' of it on Easter Saturday - came in late from Hadfield as a 6 car set, cue everyone piling on only to be told it's splitting to a single 3-car set.
Pictures attached show p5 before it came in as well as "boarding" (read: stampede) at MAN, with the quieter images being taken just after departing Macclesfield.

Seems daft to split it, but presumably the alternative would have been cancelling a service out of Manchester the next morning due to the unit not being in place (which, if it's a Stoke service, really has to be avoided at all costs in my opinion because of the very low frequency Sunday service).

I have actually seen the whole length of a 6-car set on the Stoke line that busy, but only once, on a northbound Saturday service during some major event in Manchester if I recall. By Heaton Chapel people were being turned away as they were physically unable to board.