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Class 331 noise complaints when stabling at Skipton

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BillyBoy

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I thought this was interesting. I live next to Skipton sidings and I had the Environmental Health Officer from Craven District Council visit me on Friday.

There had been a number of complaints from my neighbours about the noise the "new" Class 331 units make throughout the night.

Apparently they don't shut down completely like the Class 333 and 156s. And the noise is intermittent which, according the EHO, is worse than a continuous one.

On this occasion being hard of hearing works to my advantage because I live as close as anyone and I haven't heard a peep!
 
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Nym

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To be fair, all of CAFs new stock has much louder converters and compressors than older stock. Having spent the last 5 weeks working alongside them and some older stock, they are noticeably louder.
 

XAM2175

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If the residents lived there before the 331s were introduced then the railway is the agent of change. Valid complaint in my books.
 
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JohnB27

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Surely its a waste of electricity if components like compressors are still running all night as well, especially in our environmentally conscious age. I can't see why a stabled unit would need its air pressure maintained constantly when not in use unless I'm missing something obvious.
Be interested to hear from any drivers of the class 331 to see if there's a technical reason why they can't be shut down completely. Aren't there some classes of EMU where the pan is dropped overnight?
 

skyhigh

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Be interested to hear from any drivers of the class 331 to see if there's a technical reason why they can't be shut down completely. Aren't there some classes of EMU where the pan is dropped overnight?
With both 331s and 333s they're normally only left pan-down if there's an isolation overnight. The rest of the time they're left live.
 

LSWR Cavalier

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What functions are running, using energy for the several hours the units are not in service? Heating, air-con? Are they perhaps cleaned during this time?
 

Llama

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Heating & air-con, compressors & air system unloader etc (purges the air system of moisture, by far the noisiest part of the unit when unloading compressed air).

Air con unit fans are the only other real noise 331s make, and as mentioned above this is intermittent every couple of minutes or so.

The compressors on 331s are very quiet and as for the 'converters', they make no real noise either.

There shouldn't be an issue in shutting the units down. The saloon lights can be operated by cleaners using a T-key even with auxiliaries off. It might actually do the units some good, with everything being computerised and the units rarely ever being fully shut down faults start creeping in just as they would if you kept your laptop running for days or weeks on end.

Starting the units up in the morning would still produce noise though, arguably more noise as the HVAC works a bit harder to acclimatise the saloon temperatures. 331s are still pretty airtight, they shouldn't lose more than say 1 bar of main res air pressure in the 6-8 hours they'd be shut down.
 

norbitonflyer

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Air con unit fans are the only other real noise 331s make, and as mentioned above this is intermittent every couple of minutes or so.

There shouldn't be an issue in shutting the units down. It might actually do the units some good, with everything being computerised and the units rarely ever being fully shut down faults start creeping in just as they would if you kept your laptop running for days or weeks on end.
Intermittent noise can be more disturbing than a constant background such as a motorway.

Shutting down from time to time can be necessary in some computerised systems. Apparently Boeing 787s had a problem because "system time" - which is used to synchronise various functions - overflowed when it reached a count of 2^31 hundredths of a second (about 8 months) from startup. Windows 95 had a similar problem after 2^32 milliseconds (about 7 weeks).

Most systems now use 64-bit numbers for timekeeping, which seems a bit excessive - 2^64 millisceonds is about 600 million years.

There is also an issue with Unix time, which is how computers store times and dates. Unix counts in whole seconds from 1970 which, for older processors using a 32bit Unix date, will reset to zero in 2038.
 

skyhigh

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It might actually do the units some good, with everything being computerised and the units rarely ever being fully shut down faults start creeping in just as they would if you kept your laptop running for days or weeks on end.
Audio announcements being a key example of that... they fail to operate when the unit hasn't been shut down for a certain period of time (hence they almost always work on 195s but are often silent on 331s)
 

AM9

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To be fair, all of CAFs new stock has much louder converters and compressors than older stock. Having spent the last 5 weeks working alongside them and some older stock, they are noticeably louder.
Ah, the cheap gift that keeps on giving. What next? :)
 

Llama

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Suspect someone is confusing the compressors for the HVAC units if they think the compressors on 331s are making a racket when running or are louder than other units, the compressors themselves are fine and pretty quiet - the dump valves etc are the noisy bits as far as air system components are concerned.

The PIS silence is a 'feature' rather than a design. If the unit hasn't been shut down in 24 hours then the PIS won't announce, but will at least now accept the correct headcode and the visual displays usually still work.
 

Roast Veg

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I hope someone is keeping a list of all the niggles with these units so they can be priced up for their mid-life refurb.
 

gallafent

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There is also an issue with Unix time, which is how computers store times and dates. Unix counts in whole seconds from 1970 which, for older processors using a 32bit Unix date, will reset to zero in 2038.
Only on legacy UNIX (and UNIX-like) systems though, there are various different solutions in place for stuff that's live and maintained at present … the wonderful thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from ;)


There is no universal solution for the Year 2038 problem. For example, in the C language, any change to the definition of the time_t data type would result in code-compatibility problems in any application in which date and time representations are dependent on the nature of the signed 32-bit time_t integer. For example, changing time_t to an unsigned 32-bit integer, which would extend the range to 2106 (specifically, 06:28:15 UTC on Sunday, 7 February 2106), would adversely affect programs that store, retrieve, or manipulate dates prior to 1970, as such dates are represented by negative numbers. Increasing the size of the time_t type to 64 bits in an existing system would cause incompatible changes to the layout of structures and the binary interface of functions.

Most operating systems designed to run on 64-bit hardware already use signed 64-bit time_t integers. Using a signed 64-bit value introduces a new wraparound date that is over twenty times greater than the estimated age of the universe: approximately 292 billion years from now. The ability to make computations on dates is limited by the fact that tm_year uses a signed 32-bit integer value starting at 1900 for the year. This limits the year to a maximum of 2,147,485,547 (2,147,483,647 + 1900).[12]

FreeBSD uses 64-bit time_t for all 32-bit and 64-bit architectures except 32-bit i386, which uses signed 32-bit time_t instead.[13]

Starting with NetBSD version 6.0 (released in October 2012), the NetBSD operating system uses a 64-bit time_t for both 32-bit and 64-bit architectures. Applications that were compiled for an older NetBSD release with 32-bit time_t are supported via a binary compatibility layer, but such older applications will still suffer from the Year 2038 problem.[14]

OpenBSD since version 5.5, released in May 2014, also uses a 64-bit time_t for both 32-bit and 64-bit architectures. In contrast to NetBSD, there is no binary compatibility layer. Therefore, applications expecting a 32-bit time_t and applications using anything different from time_t to store time values may break.[15]

Linux originally used a 64-bit time_t for 64-bit architectures only; the pure 32-bit ABI was not changed due to backward compatibility.[16] Starting with version 5.6, 64-bit time_t is supported on 32-bit architectures, too. This was done primarily for the sake of embedded Linux systems.[17]

The x32 ABI for Linux (which defines an environment for programs with 32-bit addresses but running the processor in 64-bit mode) uses a 64-bit time_t. Since it was a new environment, there was no need for special compatibility precautions.[16]

While the native APIs of OpenVMS can support timestamps up to the 31st of July 31086,[18] the C runtime library (CRTL) uses 32-bit integers for time_t.[19] As part of Y2K compliance work that was carried out in 1998, the CRTL was modified to use unsigned 32-bit integers to represent time; extending the range of time_t up to the 7th of February 2106.[20]

Network File System version 4 has defined its time fields as struct nfstime4 {int64_t seconds; uint32_t nseconds;} since December 2000.[21] Values greater than zero for the seconds field denote dates after the 0-hour, January 1, 1970. Values less than zero for the seconds field denote dates before the 0-hour, January 1, 1970. In both cases, the nseconds (nanoseconds) field is to be added to the seconds field for the final time representation.

Alternative proposals have been made (some of which are already in use), such as storing either milliseconds or microseconds since an epoch (typically either 1 January 1970 or 1 January 2000) in a signed 64-bit integer, providing a minimum range of 300,000 years at microsecond resolution.[22][23] In particular, Java's use of 64-bit long integers everywhere to represent time as "milliseconds since 1 January 1970" will work correctly for the next 292 million years. Other proposals for new time representations provide different precisions, ranges, and sizes (almost always wider than 32 bits), as well as solving other related problems, such as the handling of leap seconds. In particular, TAI64[24] is an implementation of the International Atomic Time (TAI) standard, the current international real-time standard for defining a second and frame of reference.
 

Bletchleyite

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As others have pointed out, intermittent noise is far worse than continuous noise. The volume is far less relevant. The body is good at tuning out continuous background noise (e.g. the continuous roar of cars you hear in MK from the M1 and A5) but not so much as if your neighbour gets up at 3am for a wee and bangs about on the way.

Do we know what the exact noise is?
 
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