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Class 332 & 333/Scharfenburg & Dellner

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O L Leigh

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Yes, because it would be hard for LM and Chiltern's Cl172s to interwork with their existing fleets without BSIs. As for LOROL's fleet, given that they almost certainly won't ever multi with any other DMU class I'm bemused why they didn't take the opportunity to fit Delners to permit a certain amount of compatibility with Cl378s.

As for the new standard, do you not have eyes...? Delners on everything except for Bombardier DMUs which mostly have BSIs due to the need to multi with older classes of DMU.

O L Leigh
 
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cj_1985

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Yes, because it would be hard for LM and Chiltern's Cl172s to interwork with their existing fleets without BSIs. As for LOROL's fleet, given that they almost certainly won't ever multi with any other DMU class I'm bemused why they didn't take the opportunity to fit Delners to permit a certain amount of compatibility with Cl378s.

As for the new standard, do you not have eyes...? Delners on everything except for Bombardier DMUs which mostly have BSIs due to the need to multi with older classes of DMU.

O L Leigh

that could be to do with the aim to electrify the lines that the class 172 are used on, and allow the 172s to be transfered to other operators...

that was one of the reasons quoted for the decision to fit the LOROL 172s with a standard seating layout instead of the "bench" type seating fitted to the class378s
 

WillPS

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Yes, because it would be hard for LM and Chiltern's Cl172s to interwork with their existing fleets without BSIs. As for LOROL's fleet, given that they almost certainly won't ever multi with any other DMU class I'm bemused why they didn't take the opportunity to fit Delners to permit a certain amount of compatibility with Cl378s.

As for the new standard, do you not have eyes...? Delners on everything except for Bombardier DMUs which mostly have BSIs due to the need to multi with older classes of DMU.

O L Leigh
It isn't a standard if half of whats built is being built to the legacy standard...

The reason London's 172s weren't built to LOs desired spec (which would have had them as essentially Diesel Capitalstars, longitudinal seating and all) is because TfL have expressed desire to electrify the GOBLIN in the mid-term, meaning they'd be needed to be cascaded to other operators.
 

WillPS

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It doesn't matter if it's not a standard provided that it makes operational sense. That's what I've been trying to get across.

O L Leigh

But what I'm trying to express is that there's several examples where it doesn't.

Why did FNW's (now ATW's) 175s have Dellners? Surely BSI would have made more sense...

Same goes for TPE's 185s.
 

cj_1985

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But what I'm trying to express is that there's several examples where it doesn't.

Why did FNW's (now ATW's) 175s have Dellners? Surely BSI would have made more sense...

Same goes for TPE's 185s.

the class 185s... fair enough.. but all Siemens Units have been delivered with the Dellner "Style/type" coupler
the class 175s.. were ordered at the same time as the class 180s... they were both originally designed to allow long distance, high speed running... so the likelihood is that they were ordered, meeting the EU spec/directive requiring common coupling equipment on all high speed trains.

Or it could be that Great Western Holdings (the "then" parent group for both GWT and NWT, pre First Group) specified them so both fleets could operate with one another if needed... you want a detailed, specific answer about this, or the 332/333 compatibility perhaps you would be better contacting the owner, original operator, or builder instead of asking and moaning about it online.
 
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O L Leigh

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Concentrating certain classes of unit onto certain services has operational benefits above and beyond dealing with coupling incompatibility, especially for a geographically large TOC like TPE and, to a slightly lesser extent, ATW. It means that the traction knowledge required for traincrew can be concentrated onto certain depots (I expect that only a few TPE traincrew depots "sign" Cl170s) which is more efficient. It also simplifies ticketing and seat reservations because it is known that a certain type of train will always operate a certain service. And yes, it means that dealing with a total failure is easier because it is more likely that a compatible train is available to push the duffer out of the way.

However, I will repeat yet again that the number of times that a train becomes a total failure and requires assistance is tiny. Most failures that require a train to be removed from passenger service will not totally immobilise it. In addition, it doesn't matter if TPE operate a mixed fleet of incompatible trains because if a Cl185 "sits down" and requires to be assisted, the nearest train to offer that assistance will be another Cl185. Likewise if it's a Cl170 that decides it doesn't want to play any more. Therefore the mixed nature of the fleet does not have a negative impact.

So in summary, no I don't believe that there is any real advantage. I'm sure TPE would have loved to have a single fleet of one type, but the fact that they do not have this luxury is not a problem. They have allocated their fleets in such a way as to make the most efficient use of them and remove any possible issues that inter-working might create.

I am not sufficiently familiar with ATW's operations and fleet disposition to comment on the situation there, but I imagine that they have taken a broadly similar approach.

**EDIT**

One other thought I would just like to add is to address the question regarding rolling stock cascades.

The rail industry is not dumb and is already aware of the potential issues. The last few rolling stock cascades have seen units moved with some thought about where they are heading in order to ensure a like-for-like transfer. For example, LM's Cl150s went to Northern and FGW who already have their own fleets of these units. And there are others. SWT sent their Cl170s away in exchange for Cl158s to ensure some degree of commonality with their fleet of Cl159s, with the Turbos going to existing Cl170 operator ScotRail. Likewise at the formation of XC and EMT the Cl158 and Cl170 fleets were divided between the two in such a way as to ensure that two distinct fleets were created giving each operator a single class of unit.

O L Leigh
 
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WillPS

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The South Western Turbostars didn't go to ScotRail, they went to TransPennine Express (who had no Turbostars and had just disposed of the last of their BSI equipped 158s!).

They're not concentrated on to certain services either - they're common now on the South TPE as well as the Hull services, I think they also occasionally make it to Liverpool. I've never made the argument relating to emergency coupling - I believe simply that they would benefit from greater flexibility, and that they haven't got this isn't of their choosing as you imply but as a result of not considering the possibility that they might end up with something other than new build!
 

O L Leigh

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I'm beginning to have problems following the direction of your argument. Yes I have already conceded that TPE would probably have loved to have got their hands on a standard fleet, but they didn't and that isn't their fault. It would appear that there are no issues with fleet utilisation, reliability or flexibility, even with a mixed fleet, so where is the problem?

There are technical aspects to be considered as well. The Cl170 is actually a fairly basic unit and has more in common with the Sprinter fleets than with the newer Desiros. They can multi with Sprinter classes without problem and Central only found the need to modify them because the way that the door interlock circuit on the Cl170 works meant that that the cab buzzer in the Sprinter would sound constantly while coupled up. Other than that they are fairly similar in many ways and are effectively a further evolution of the original Sprinter design, unlike the Cl185s which are much more complex trains (similarly with the Cl175s and Cl180s).

And this is probably where the root cause of the different couplers comes from. There probably is no way that a Cl175/180/185 can be made to operate with a Sprinter class unit no matter what you do. Indeed, it may even be the case that these more complex trains cannot even work with a BSI because of the nature of the connections within the connector block. (Cl357s have Tightlocks but the connector block is of a different design, meaning that although they look compatible they almost certainly cannot be coupled to any other class of EMU, even for assistance purposes.) So one of the easiest and most effective ways of preventing units of a totally incompatible type coupling up is to fit them with different couplers.

O L Leigh
 

ChristopherJ

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Another example that standardised couplings, in regards to my suggestions, should be mandatory...

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=66208
The problems stem from no other type of train being able to assist the trapped 378s. Netowrk Rail could not attend to fix the wires until the trains were removed and The trains couldnt be moved because of no power a vicous circle indeed.
 

starrymarkb

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Another issue is the relative performance of units. There was a case when a Class 105 blew up when it couldn't match the performance of the Cl 127 it was coupled to. The resulting fire lead to at least one fatality IIRC as passengers broke out of the still moving train. The 127s were then 'modded' with a new multiple working code (Though no physical mods were made) to prevent a repeat occurrence
 

John55

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Another issue is the relative performance of units. There was a case when a Class 105 blew up when it couldn't match the performance of the Cl 127 it was coupled to. The resulting fire lead to at least one fatality IIRC as passengers broke out of the still moving train. The 127s were then 'modded' with a new multiple working code (Though no physical mods were made) to prevent a repeat occurrence

I don't think running a hydraulic transmission (DHMU) train with a mechanical transmission (DMMU) train and the driver forgetting to change gear when driving from the DHMU unit is a performance difference issue.
 
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