Class 365 acceleration

[crazystripe]

The morning service I catch into Kings Cross is mostly a 12-car class 365.
I have noticed that some units really struggle to accelerate smoothly/rapidly from stations.

It feels like the driver is attempting to increase the power having got the unit moving, but then the traction appears to suddenly shut-off, re-apply, and then the same thing keeps happening. It then feels like the driver is reducing the power so as to accelerate more gradually, and then only once a certain speed is reached can full power be re-applied.

Were the conditions wet, I'd assume this was wheel-slip, but this seems to happen regardless of the weather conditions, and it only seems to happen on certain units, and more noticeably when pulling away from certain stations (Arlesey seems to be the worst).

Can anybody shed any l light on what is happening? Is it unit-specific? Is it because the units are in need of an overhaul? Is it something to do with the track?

 

[Captain Slow]

As you say, it depends on the unit. Generally in the peak periods with higher passenger loadings the motors (AC on the 365, on both DMOC's at either end of each four car set) have obviously more work to do and sometimes overload and trip out. The solution to this is to notch down to a lower power notch to try and avoid the jolt this creates.

With a good set of motors they're swift units and the blended dynamic brake is very powerful-you can do most of if not all of the braking in step 1 in good adhesion conditions.

 

[A-driver]

To be honest the motors on many 365s are just not as good as they used to be so there are some where if you take weak field below about 30mph they overload. Only way to know this is to try though and if you take too long notching up fully then you loose a lot of acceleration and time.

Plus with a 12car you have 3 different units accelerating at 3 different speeds and this can create a less than smooth acceleration.

 

[crazystripe]

Thanks for the responses.

Does the refurbishment of the GN 365 units (i.e. the refurbished ones being the ones with the white/blue colour scheme and new seating pattern/upholstery) include work on the motors, or is this an "issue" that is not going to go away any time soon?

 

[spuddie]

I've had this before too even on a 4 or 8 car service pulling away from Letchworth, one unit was so bad I was convinced it was going to break down somewhere on route as it almost had to drop to walking pace to get going.

 

[bramling]

To be honest the motors on many 365s are just not as good as they used to be so there are some where if you take weak field below about 30mph they overload. Only way to know this is to try though and if you take too long notching up fully then you loose a lot of acceleration and time.

Plus with a 12car you have 3 different units accelerating at 3 different speeds and this can create a less than smooth acceleration.

I've noticed it's become increasingly common to have units with motors not working -- I've been in units where one of the motor cars is either completely dead (no motors, plus also no heat), and others where the motors are only operating at one end of the car. Always used to happen occasionally, but in the last year or two I've noticed it's increased considerably. I've also noticed sometimes the same unit can have an issue long-term. Is there a particular issue at present with the fleet?

 

[Aictos]

One for A-Driver but on any GTR unit currently in use, how as a passenger apart from the obvious slow acceleration is it noticeable if a set is on half power?

 

[Captain Slow]

One for A-Driver but on any GTR unit currently in use, how as a passenger apart from the obvious slow acceleration is it noticeable if a set is on half power?

On a 313 or 365 if the motors are cut out in a power car (either of the driving coaches-a DMOC or DMS) it'll be eerily quiet. And slow! Obviously if the unit is running in multiple it'll have less of an impact but you can still feel it.

I've not driven a 317 or 321 with a set of motors cut out but I imagine it'll just be slower.

I've noticed there are more 365's which have no dynamic brake (reverting to air only). Can't say I've noticed loads and loads with motors cut out.

 

[gazthomas]

Will the 365's be candidates for AC motor conversion?

 

[Domh245]

I thought they already have AC motors? It's just that they have old style traction inverters, GTOs (aka choppers) akin to those on the 96TS, 323s, and 3rd rail networkers.

 

[D365]

I thought they already have AC motors? It's just that they have old style traction inverters, GTOs (aka choppers) akin to those on the 96TS, 323s, and 3rd rail networkers.

Correct. Only the BREL/ABB-manufactured Class 465/0-1 fleets (all Eversholt-owned) have received replacement IGBT inverters, though retaining the original Brush three-phase AC motors.

 

[A-driver]

Thanks for the responses.



Does the refurbishment of the GN 365 units (i.e. the refurbished ones being the ones with the white/blue colour scheme and new seating pattern/upholstery) include work on the motors, or is this an "issue" that is not going to go away any time soon?

No plans for any work on the motors.

I'm not sure it is actually an issue though? Occasionally the motors overload for a second then kick straight back in. Dosnt really have a notable effect on the overall performance or delay the train.

 

[SPADTrap]

I've not driven a 317 or 321 with a set of motors cut out but I imagine it'll just be slower.

Then you mustn't have driven many 317s :razz:

Forgot what they drive like with all four motors in!

 

[D365]

Then you mustn't have driven many 317s :razz:

Forgot what they drive like with all four motors in!

Do you know much about 317722 or any progress on the refurbishment plans?

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Will they get their traction package replaced like the 3rd rail networkers

 

[Bungle965]

Then you mustn't have driven many 317s :razz:

Forgot what they drive like with all four motors in!

I wonder how many are actually in service with all four motors working!

 

[D365]

Will they get their traction package replaced like the 3rd rail networkers

No. As I explained earlier, it was only the BREL/ABB-manufactured 465s which have been retrofitted with the Hitachi IGBT kit. This was done in order to improve reliability, there is no economical case for the GEC/Alsthom-tractioned units (i.e. all remaining Networkers; Classes 465/2, 466, 365) to receive the mods.

 

[Captain Slow]

Then you mustn't have driven many 317s :razz:

Forgot what they drive like with all four motors in!

Tell a lie, I have done, once when I was a trainee (not exactly a long time ago haha!). It was a double unit and it had one set of motors out-to be fair I didn't think it was too bad-it clearly wasn't that memorable

A 313 with a set of motors out on the other hand is painful...!

The depot I'm at doesn't get a great deal of 317 or 321 work, shame as I quite enjoy driving them, especially 321s.

 

[notadriver]

To be honest the motors on many 365s are just not as good as they used to be so there are some where if you take weak field below about 30mph they overload. Only way to know this is to try though and if you take too long notching up fully then you loose a lot of acceleration and time.

Plus with a 12car you have 3 different units accelerating at 3 different speeds and this can create a less than smooth acceleration.

With AC motors there's no such thing as weak field. Regarding overloads there is a chance the converters are getting too hot and may need cleaning out which may explain overloads at lower speeds.

 

[A-driver]

With AC motors there's no such thing as weak field. Regarding overloads there is a chance the converters are getting too hot and may need cleaning out which may explain overloads at lower speeds.

The power notches in the 365 traction guide are:
1-shunt power
2-half power
3-full power
4-full power plus weak field.

So I can only go by that.

 

[notadriver]

Deleted

 

[bramling]

No. As I explained earlier, it was only the BREL/ABB-manufactured 465s which have been retrofitted with the Hitachi IGBT kit. This was done in order to improve reliability, there is no economical case for the GEC/Alsthom-tractioned units (i.e. all remaining Networkers; Classes 465/2, 466, 365) to receive the mods.

As an aside I'm sure I read a while ago that the class 323s were up for retractioning, however haven't heard anything since.

Is retractioning for class 323s still on the agenda?

Hopefully not as they do make a rather pleasing sound!

 

[MCR247]

As an aside I'm sure I read a while ago that the class 323s were up for retractioning, however haven't heard anything since.

Is retractioning for class 323s still on the agenda?

Hopefully not as they do make a rather pleasing sound!

I've never heard anything about 323 retractioning? :? Are you sure it wasn't 321s? 448 is now away having it done

 

[hedpe]

The power notches in the 365 traction guide are:
1-shunt power
2-half power
3-full power
4-full power plus weak field.

So I can only go by that.

AC motors are controlled by varying the frequency of the chopper control (the voltage is turned on and off rapidly to produce an average in simple terms). Perhaps they just use that for drivers coming off old rolling stock?

On each driving end of a 365 is a power rack that has a multitude of cards that control the traction inverters, some of which use old school intel x86 processors. From experience, we had one unit that would cut out momentarily when accelerating and this was caused by a faulty card (they are a bit similar to ISA/PCI cards in a computer).

 

[bramling]

I've never heard anything about 323 retractioning? :? Are you sure it wasn't 321s? 448 is now away having it done

I can't remember where I read it, but it was *definitely* referring to class 323. (Unless it was a typo, of course!).

 

[hassaanhc]

AC motors are controlled by varying the frequency of the chopper control (the voltage is turned on and off rapidly to produce an average in simple terms). Perhaps they just use that for drivers coming off old rolling stock?

On each driving end of a 365 is a power rack that has a multitude of cards that control the traction inverters, some of which use old school intel x86 processors. From experience, we had one unit that would cut out momentarily when accelerating and this was caused by a faulty card (they are a bit similar to ISA/PCI cards in a computer).

Some Class 456 units are prone to doing that, they use a similar system to control DC motors.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

If they're using ancient intel x86 processors, could the processors be starting to fail through old age and possibly being life expired?

 

[jon0844]

Can't the driver use his/her smartphone? Probably has more professing power! (not serious btw)

 

[D365]

Can't the driver use his/her smartphone? Probably has more professing power! (not serious btw)

Funny you should say that, as I have been on a cab ride in a small continental 90s-era DMU where the train driver was using a (presumably company-issue) Android smartphone to play the PIS announcements - through what looked to be a USB interface...

Wouldn't like to think about the consequences of depending on a driver's phone to keep the train in motion if we're talking off-the-shelf devices, perhaps a Raspberry Pi might be workable

 

[hedpe]

Can't the driver use his/her smartphone? Probably has more professing power! (not serious btw)

No, because it would have to be a specially calibrated ISO 9000998 smart phone, using already outdated technology and costing £20,000 each.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If they're using ancient intel x86 processors, could the processors be starting to fail through old age and possibly being life expired?

Unfortunately i dont know the details of all the common faults but cards do get swapped out and get sent off for repair.

The 365 as a whole, shows the early development of computer systems and micro processors within trains. The power electronics rack i spoke of in my previous post has a fault logging system. This can be connected via a serial port to a computer with MS-DOS for viewing (pretty basic). The WSP uses another DOS program to input wheel sizes for the speedo.

In my traction training manual, they recognised the potential for satellite based systems connected to maintenance facilities in order to utilise real-time monitoring!